Mr Hill
Q Are You left handed or right handed
A Right handed
Q How long have you known Tony Hawkes
A 4 Year
Q How did you get to know him
A I can’t remember I just know him, he doesn’t
live far from me
Q And Jordan Towers
A He lives along the road I have known him for 2 years
Q Tony says you always carry a knife
A No I don’t always just occasionally after I got stabbed
Q When did you get stabbed
A Friday the 13th
Q. July 2006
A Yeah it will have been aye, I’m not quite sure when it
happened, it was Christmas and Friday the 13th when I
got stabbed
Q Who stabbed you
A. My cousin
Q You occasionally carried a knife
A Yes, I would carry it just to warn him to say I’ve
got a knife dinnit come near is
Q Have you ever stabbed anyone with a knife
A. Never no
Q. The jury have heard when your house was
searched there were two knives in the laundry
basket, can you tell us why they were there
A I took the handle off so my mam could not
get in when I smoke cannabis
Q I am going to ask you to look as some photographs.
Do you recognise the first one
A It’s my bedroom door
Q And the others are the same door
A Yes
Q Who do you live with at Forest Road
A Me mam, sister and me mam’s boyfriend
Q Did you go out during the afternoon of the 18th
of May 2007
A Yes Tony knocked on for me
Q Where did you go
A Tony knocked on and said he had two black and
decker drills and a jet wash to sell to get some
money for drink
Q Did he sell them
A He got £20 for the jet wash and £5 worth of dope
for the drill, he still had one drill left
Q Where did you go from there
A Thompson’s
Q Colin Thompson’s
A Yes
Q How long did you stay there
A Until it started getting dark about 6pm/7pm
Judge – It gets dark then does it
A Well it may have been later I know it was
just getting dark
Q In May this is 9pm
A I don’t know I was not keeping an eye on
the time
Q What were you drinking
A Vodka and a couple of cans
Q Did you see Jordan
A Yes Tony came for me and we went and
got Jordan
Q What state would you say you were in
when you left Thompson’s
A Alright
Q And the other two
A They were alright
Q When you had gone out did you have
a knife with you
A I can’t remember, well I did not have a
knife when I went out, I got a Stanley knife
from the shed, Tony said we could use it when
we were making buckets
Q OK, when did you come to be in possession of
this Stanley knife
A When we came out of Thompson’s I heard a
bang
Q Who was with you then
A Tony and Jordan, we went closer to see what
the bang was
Q Did you find out what it had been
A A couple of kids were trying to get in a boarded
up house to try and get the copper
Q But you said you went to a shed
A There was a shed there so we had a look
Q Who was looking
A Me and Tony, Jordan was a bit back
Q You said Tony told you to take it
A He said it would be good for buckets
Q Describe buckets
A You cut the bottom off the plastic bottle
and then stick it in the water and suck it up
Q What did you do with the knife once you
had it
A I kept it in my pocket and forgot about
having it
Q Can you tell the Judge and Jury what you
were wearing
A A Nike pullover, two pair of tracksuit bottoms,
white ones underneath and blue ones
on top
Q A Nike Air Max top with a hood, did
it have pockets
A Yes two side pockets
Q Which pocket did you put the knife in
A Inside trouser pocket of the outer pair
Q Did you have any other knife with at that
time or even later on
A No
Q Where did you go can you remember, after
you had been to the shed
A We went to the shop but it was shut so Tony
suggested we go to the drink doctor but someone
came out and shouted at Tony, saying a bike had
gone missing and he was getting the blame for it
Q Was it Tony’s dad
A No just a relation someone just came out and
said he had stop a PHAT bike, it is a big chunky
bike that you race on to go on the tracks
Q Did that alter what you were doing
A Yes because the gadgey came down and started
saying he was going to break his legs if he did not
get his bike back. Tony said he took it off the kids so
they didn’t hurt themselves
Q And this man threatened him
A He had him pinned against the bushes
Q So you were looking for the drink doctor
A It was the drink doctor
Q Oh I see. He served you some vodka
A Yes
Q Why did he serve you
A Cause he has known me and me mam for
a good while
Q Now that you have got some vodka where
did you go next
A Walked past the triple X club
Q Did you go anywhere else
A To Terry Halls house
Q You went back there again in the early hours
of the morning
A Yes
Q But you also went in the evening
A Yes
Q Who was there
A Me, Tony and Jordan
Q What happened in there
A I was messing about with the mobile phone
and Tony came back and said where is the mobile
phone and he kicked me in the face and said where is
the phone
Q Who’s phone was it
A His Aunties
Q You were messing about with it
A Yes, he came in said where is the phone, I said
I don’t know what your talking about, he kicked me
in the face
Q How did he kick you in the face
A Just booted me with the middle of his foot
Q How hard did he kick you
A I wouldn’t say really hard but he kicked me
Q Was he joking
A No
Q How did you react
A I said what you doing and he went into the
kitchen raking for something
Q Did you say or do anything else
A We walked out of the house
Q Was Jordan still there
A Yes, we walked out of the house and Jordan
came out and said wait I’ll walk down with you’d
Q Did you wait
A Yes we sat on the wall and had a fag waiting for
Jordan, Tony told me he was joking and to chill out,
Jordan said he had a phone call and there was some lases
up Pennywell with drink
Q This was Terry Halls house, did you go in any more houses
before the incident with Kevin Johnson
A No
Q As far as your concerned you were going for drink
A Yes
Q Did you know Tony had a screwdriver
A No
Q Did you know he was planning to break into cars
A He had been like that for a while, he tries to do things
but I don’t take much notice of him
Q Its fair to say you have joined in
A No I have never joined in
Q But you have been with him previously
A Yes
Q Did he say anything on this occasion
A No
Q Did you know at that point he had a knife
A No I didn’t know he had a knife, nar
Q You didn’t know he had a screwdriver, you
didn’t know he had a knife
A No
Q Was there anything to suggest he had a knife
A When I heard car tyres getting deflated
Q When you set off towards Pennywell you didn’t
know he had anything in his pocket
A No
Q What about Jordan did you know he had a knife
A No
Q Has you any reason to believe he might have
a weapon
A No I didn’t see nowt on him
Q We know that sooner or later the three of you
walked down Partick Road
A Yes
Q How far down did you get when you heard tyres
going down
A About three or four doors up
Q Did you see the cars tyres being let down
A No I just heard them
Q You heard the hissing sound did you look to see
what had happened
A We were walking down, a car window got
smashed off
Q Do you know how
A Tony kicked it off
Q Did you see that
A Yes
Q Where were you
A Just a bit ahead of him
Q How was it kicked off
A He just kicked it off and it fell to the
floor
Q Then you heard tyres going down
A I heard a hissing noise
Q Did you see anything in his hand at that
point
A No
Q Was it at that moment that you thought Tony
had a knife
A I thought he must have had something sharp
Q At what point did you have any further thoughts
about what it might be
A Didn’t really give it a thought just that it must have
been sharp
Q When you got close to Kevin Johnson’s house what
was the first you knew of there being trouble
A We were walking past and I heard Tony saying what
the fuck is that little idiot looking at
Q Did you say anything
A No, I said to Tony haway we’ll walk on
Q Did you stop walking at all
A To see what he was doing, I paused to see what
Tony was doing, I think the man came out because
he heard the noise of things being damaged
Q The point when you paused where was Tony
A Outside of Kevin’s window
Q We shall refer to the photos. Look at 1 and 3 of DC1
A Yes
Q We can see part of the house, there are semi detached
houses there. When you say Tony was standing outside
where would he be if you did it to reference of
Kevin Johnson’s door
A Just standing outside the door and Kevin was
at the blinds, the window was not open
Q You were in front, how far in front
A Next to the bushes
Q Where, if you mark the photo (shown to jury).
Q You say Tony was shouting where Kevin was
could you hear if Kevin was shouting back
A. I couldn’t no
Q What was Tony shouting
A Get your fucking head in
Q What was the next thing that had happened
A We were all walking down the road and the man
came out, Tony started to give him loads of abuse
and stuff like that
Q I didn’t quite catch exactly what Kevin did
A He said be quiet and then Tony started to give
him loads of abuse
Q What happened next
A Tony and Kevin started fighting
Q Where abouts
A Just next to where the X is, we never really
moved
Q Were they on the pavement or the road
A Pavement I think
Q Did you do anything
A After a while aye
Q Did you do anything as they started fighting
A No
Q How did they fight
A Punching each other and things like that
Q How close were you
A Quite close aye
Q Could you at that stage see if anyone had a
weapon
A No
Q After a bit what did you do
A I ran over
Q Why
A Kevin was a big size and he was going to end up
getting knacked so I ran over to help, he’s always
cheeky when he’s full of drink, I feared for him so I
ran over
Q When you ran over how did the fight appear to be
going
A It looked like he was getting knacked, he was stumbling
Judge – Tony was stumbling back you said
A Yes
Q When you ran towards them did you get to them
A Yes
Q Then what happened
A Kevin moved back and appeared to dive on
me, I’m not sure it it was to keep himself up
Q Where did he make contact with you
A My waist at first
Q Did his arms move or did he move
A When Tony ran over
Q When he grabbed your waist did he remain in that
position
A Yes
Q Were you aware at that point that he was injured
A No
Q Did you remain on your feet
A Yes
Q Did you fall over at any stage
A No, I remained on my feet and trying to shake him
off my legs
Q You never mentioned he had hold of your legs
A Well he moved down and Tony tried to get him off
Q When he had you by the waist was he still on his feet
A Yes, I said get him off is, get him off is
Q Did you yourself do anything to try and get him off you
A Shaking my legs
Q By shaking your legs do you mean kicking out at him
A Yes to say get off me
Q Did you do anything with your hands
A No
Q You say Tony came around
A Yes
Q I don’t know if you can say but whereabouts in Partick
Road were you
A I think we had moved across to the other side of the
road
Q When he had you by the waist were you moving
A Yes
Q Which direction
A All over I was just trying to get him off me
Q Where did Tony approach from
A Behind Kevin
Q Have you any idea what Tony did when he got behind
Kevin
A I didn’t but Kevin made a noise, he had hold of me and
made a noise like he had been stabbed, at the time I did not
know what it was
Q Did Kevin leave go
A He slid down my legs
Q Were you then free
A No cos Jordan then ran over and threw a brick at the kid
Q There was a lot of discussion about this did it hit him
A No, he had hold of my legs, I saw the brick come over and
then Kevin did not have hold of my legs any more
Q Once you were free then what did you do
A I walked away
Q Did you see what Kevin did when he was no
longer holding onto your legs
A He was getting up off the ground pulling his top
up
Q OK
A He was saying you’ve stabbed is, you’ve stabbed is
Q Have you made any progress from walking away
A I would not say git far but a distance of 5/6 metres
Q If you were walking away was he behind you
A Yes, I was walking backwards though
Q Could you tell who he was directing it to
A No
Q Where was Jordan
A In front of me
Q And Tony
A Lagging behind
Q When he pulled his shirt up could you see if
he was injured
A No
Q So what did you think when you heard him
say this
A Didn’t really think much of it
Q You say he was walking away
A. Yes
Q We know you had the Stanley knife did you
get it out of your pocket
A No, I had forgot about it
Q At this stage had you seen a knife
A I saw Tony putting something away
Q When was that
A When Kevin said he had been stabbed
Q When you saw Tony putting something down
his tracksuit bottoms how much did you see
A. A small amount
Q Did it look like a knife
A It did aye
Q As you left did you continue to walk
A Yes we went through a subway
Q You told the police you were sick
A I was yes, there was loads of commotions and
I was full of drink, it was the adrenaline and I
whitied
Q We are quite familiar now with the layout of the
area. Apart from Tony putting something in his tracksuit
bottoms did you have a conversation with the others
A Yes I asked which one of the two stabbed him and
Tony said it was him
Q What was your reaction
A I said he was daft, what did you do that for, where
did you stab him and he said in the chest
Q In the chest, did you believe him that he actually
stabbed him
A No, I just didn’t believe him, I don’t know why,
I thought Kevin was lying, I thought if Tony had
stabbed him it would be in the leg or something, not
in the chest
Q You said you didn’t know Tony had a knife until
this point
A No
Q To your knowledge had you any reason to believe
Tony would stab anyone
A No he has never been like that really, there was just
too much drink in him
Q This conversation, we have heard evidence that as
the three of you’d crossed Chester Road there was a
disagreement between the three of you’s
A We walked under the subway
Q Do you remember anything happening as you
walked down the steps
A I was arguing saying what have you done that for
are you stupid
Q Now why did you stay with him at that point
A He had been my friend for a long time, I just
decided to say with him
Q What are your feelings now
A I wish I had just walked away, I wish I never
went out with him
Q What is your memory of what happened with
Jamie Thompson
A We were on the same side of the road
Q Did you cross the road
A We may have done but I don’t remember
Q Who was the first to approach him
A He called him by his name I thought he knew
him
Q Jordan called him by the name
A Yes
Q Before this had anyone said anything to register
that Jamie was there
A Jordan just called him by his name so we went
over I sat on the wall and the kid just ran away, I
did not know he had been stabbed
Q Look at these photos, you see the first two
A Yes
Q If you look at 3 and 4, do any of those photos
help you
A We were just walking on that side of the road
Q Have a look at number 7, does that look familiar
A No
Q You say you sat on a low wall is that right
A Yes, we sat on the wall I think in photo number 7,
just in the flats
Q At what point did you sit on the wall
A I just sat down to have a fag
Q Right you say Jordan went over to him
A Yes
Q Were you next to Tony
A Yes
Q Could you hear what Jordan was saying
A No he was in front
Q When he went up to him how far away was
he
A Just a little bit down the road we walked past
him we didn’t pay much attention
Q Did there come a time when you stopped and
looked back
A Yes we were about 5/6 metres away
Q Were you still with Tony at that point
A Yes, Jordan said the name Jamie and then
Tony ran over to him
Q You heard the name smack
A Yes, I heard Jamie as well
Q You said Tony said ‘it is, it is’ and ran towards
him
A Yes
Q You walked slowly
A Aye to see what was happening
Q It appeared to be a fight and you sat on the wall
A Well there did not appear to be a fight, there was
a ruffle and it happened git quick, by the time I walked
over the kid was away
Q What was the closest you got
A About 5 metres away
Q That’s when you were sitting on the wall
A Yes
Q When Jamie ran away had you had any idea of what
had happened to him
A No, I didn’t know he had been stabbed, Tony didn’t
even say he had stabbed him
Q When did you find out he had been stabbed
A When I was locked up and asked questions about it
Q You understand that Tony says that you stabbed Kevin
A That’s what he says aye
Q Your answer to that is
A. No I didn’t
Q You pulled a knife out and waved it at him
A No
Q Did anything like that happen
A No
Q Did you goad him or egg him on
A No
Q Jamie states the one who asked him for a cigarette
was further back than the other two so that would suggest
you were the closest
A No, the lad might have got the wrong idea but I don’t
know why he is saying it, he was offering us smack
Q But your evidence is that did not happen
A No
Q At either of these incidents did you hear anyone
laughing
A No I can’t remember anyone laughing
Q Did you laugh
A No, I wouldn’t not if someone had been stabbed,
I’ve been stabbed myself I don’t think it is funny
Q Where did you go next
A Jordan’s aunties
Q Why
A There was supposed to be some lasses and drink
but there was no one there
Q We’ve heard from her she was not happy about
this
A No
Q What was going on between you and Tony
A We were arguing, we had been all night, it was
over the kid who had been stabbed, Tony said the man
should not have come out the house and cracked him and
he wouldn’t have done it
Q What else
A I said he shouldn’t have stabbed him in the chest because he
could have killed him
Q Did you have any inkling that this man was not dead
A No
Q Where did you go next
A Angela Curtis’s trying to get her up for cigarette’s
Q Did you leave the tracksuit bottoms there
A I honestly can’t remember
Q Did you back later on
A Yes
Q By that time did you know someone was dead
A Yes but I didn’t believe it
Q Did you get cigarette’s the first time
A No
Q We’ve heard some tracksuit bottoms were taken
from the line
A Yes by Tony and he threw a pair at me and said
just take a pair
Q Did you take them
A I’m not saying I did but I can’t remember
Q Some bicycles were taken is that correct
A Yes
Q At the Shell garage were you trying to buy anything
A Yes 20 Lambert and Butler
Q Who was the first person to try and get served
A Tony, he was making the lad go backwards and forwards
and then he said go away your not getting anything
Q Was he doing it all in one go or keep sending him back
A Aye he was
Q At that point did you try and buy some cigarette’s
A Yes but he said I was with my friend and he
was not getting served
Q Would yo agree you got angry and started shouting
A Yes
Q A Stanley knife was produced
A Yes
Q How did that come about
A I had 3 cigarette’s in my pocked, some chewy’s and
a packet of lockets
Q So how did the Stanley knife become produced
A Every time I tried to find a £1 coin in my pocked I
was getting 2p’s, so I took it out of my pocket to reach
my money
Q When you first took the Stanley knife out did you
still have it in your hand when you were shouting
A I think I did aye
Q Was the blade out
A No
Q Had it ever been out
A No never during the night
Q How did this come to an end
A Tony started throwing a brick at the window
Q What did you do then
A I walked away
Q It was said a male at the kiosk had a cut on his
face was that you
A Yes
Q How did you get those
A When I was going to my grandmother’s I cut
my face on the thorn’s
Q Did you have them at the garage
A I will have yes
Q We know the evidence is you went to a taxi office
A Yes
Q At some stage you arrived at Terry Halls house
A Yes
Q Who was at the house when you first arrived
A Me and Tony
Q Had Jordan left you at that stage
A Yes he went to his house
Q You and Tony, Terry Hall was in bed
A No she was at the toilet
Q Did someone arrive at the house
A Two men in a mini and a 15 year old lass called EP
Q Did something happen
A When they first came in no but then I started thinking
they were perverts
Q You told EP was 15, how old were the men
A In their 30′s
Q Apart from you thinking they were perverts did you
do anything
A No not until Tony started to get wound up because he
did not know who the lads were
Q Did you say they were perverts
A I said to Tony, yes
Q Did they hear
A Don’t think so no
Q Did anything happen
A Tony said that I had stabbed someone with
a Stanley blade to warn them off
Q From what you could see why do you think
he said that to warn them
A Because they were perverts
Q Did they know you thought they were perverts
A Not that I know of like no
Q What did you think when Tony said about stabbing
someone with a Stanley blade
A Well because they were wanting to fight me
Q Why
A Because they must have heard me calling them a pervert,
I’m not sure if they did
Q Were you worried Tony said you stabbed someone with
a Stanley knife
A Aye
Q Did anything else happen
A Not that I know of no
Q It’s been said that at some point you were boasting and
bragging about an incident earlier on
A No I wasn’t no
Q It has been suggested that Tony had been put down and
you had to go and sort the fight out for him
A Aye
Q Did you say that to anyone
A EP and that
Q You did, did you say to EP or anyone in the house that
you had stabbed anyone
A No I said Tony had stabbed someone
Q When Tony was talking to these two men do you remember
him using the name Mr Stanley
A I think he did aye
Q Did you ever refer to your Stanley knife as Mr Stanley
A No
Q The evidence of Terry Hall is that she received a telephone
call at some point and the news was that someone had died,
what was your reaction
A I couldn’t believe it
Q What did you do when you heard that news
A I left, I left Tony
Q How long did you stay at your house
A About 15 minutes or something
Q What happened to the tracksuit bottoms you had
been wearing
A Went into the bin
Q Which bin
A Me aunties
Q So did you get changed at home
A Well I went to me aunties and tossed them in the
bin and went home where I put some new ones on
Q What did you put on when you took off your tracksuit
bottoms
A. A pair of trousers that did not fit me properly then
I went down to my mam’s
Q There is a photo of a Stanley knife at your Nana’s house.
Is that the knife that in your pocket this night
A I think it was aye
Q Your not 100% sure
A No
Q Did you go to your grandmothers at some point
A Yes me and Jordan did
Q You changed your clothes, we’ve heard evidence that
you went to Jordan’s house
A Yes
Q Did you actually go in
A No
Q What do you remember when you were there
A Jordan
Q What did Jordan say to you
A That someone had bee stabbed and killed or something
like that
Q Had you already heard this at Terry Halls
A Just to knock on for him
Q Someone had died was that playing on your mind
A Yes
Q What was your reaction
A Couldn’t take him serious
Q Why did you change your tracksuit bottoms
A I knew if the kid fell against my legs there could
have been blood
Q When you heard the man had died you changed your
tracksuit bottoms
A Aye
Q The second time you are told someone is dead did you
laugh
A Not at that
Q Not at that
A No Jordan was pale and cock eyed, I laughed at him
Q At his appearance
A Yes
Q Can you remember what you were saying
A No
Q Can you remember what you were planning on
doing at this time
A Go to my Nana’s and clean the house
Q Did you think about going to the police
A I said to my Aunty I was going to hand myself in
Q You were going to do this then
A Yes
Q When were you thinking of handing yourself in
A When I was in Angela’s
Q So you changed your mind
A I did not take it serious until I switched the TV on
Q When you left Jordan’s did anyone leave with you
A Jordan
Q When you went to your grandmother’s is that when
you put the TV on
A Yes
Q What did you do after that
A Got a phone call saying go and hand yourself in son
Q Jordan did
A Yes
Q What about you
A I went to the hospital to see my Nana
Q What about after that
A They locked me up
Q So when you left Jordan’s the only place you were
was grandmother’s and hospital
A Yes
Q What were you feeling when you were locked up
by the police
A Couldn’t believe it
Q How do you feel now
A It’s horrible like
Q What about Jamie Thompson
A Didn’t really see it. I didn’t want anyone to get stabbed
if you want to a fight – fight with your fists

Mr Bloomfield for Tony Hawkes

Q Friday the 18th of May went like this. Tony came round
to call for you
A Aye
Q Asked you to go for a drink but you didn’t have any
money. You had no money for drink or cigarette’s and how
you got money was not anything you did, but Tony stole a
jet wash and a power drill is that right
A Yes
Q Tony stole them
A Aye
Q Tony was the man that went and traded them in
A Aye
Q You did nothing
A No
Q You went to Colin Thompson’s and when you came
out you saw a shed, you went to investigate and Tony
suggested you picked up a knife
A Yes
Q That was Tony’s idea was it
A Aye
Q By this time you got some money
A Yes
Q Then you see the drink doctor who threatens
to break Tony’s legs
A Yes
Q Nothing to do with you
A Nothing to do with me no
Q You then say you end up in Terry Halls house
A Yes
Q He kicked you in the face
A Yes
Q But you had not done anything to deserve that
A I had the phone he said I was trying to steal the phone
Q But you weren’t so there was no good reason
A But he thought I was so it was a good reason
Q Before you got to Partick Road you heard air gushing
it was Tony who slit the tyres and kicked the car wind mirror
off
A Yes
Q Tony did all this apparently
A Not apparently he did
Q You and Jordan did not do anything wrong
A We were just with him
Q You did not know he did these crimes, that he was carrying
a knife
A Yes
Q You had been with him for four hours or more
A A good few hours aye
Q Kevin’s house he heard you’d shouting up at the windows
A Aye that’s right
Q Kevin comes out you started shouting abuse
A No
Q Fighting starts and it is Kevin Johnson
A Yes
Q Tony you say that stabbed him
A I didn’t see him stab him but when I saw a knife going into
his trousers then I thought he must have
Q You heard him saying he had been stabbed
A Something like that aye
Q When you crossed the road to Geddes Road there is more
car damage
A I don’t know about that like no
Q Is that not where the wing mirror got knocked off
A No that was in the same road as Kevin was killed
Q It wasn’t Jordan Towers
A Can’t remember
Q You get to Greenwood Road and there is a scuffle between you
and Tony
A No scuffle, an argument
Q The argument was you had done something and he hadn’t
A No I just said what did you do that for
Q Greenwood Road Jamie got stabbed
A Now I know but not at the time I didn’t
Q Tony steals the tracksuits bottoms and puts them
on but you didn’t
A Can’t remember
Q Some bicycles were stolen from a shed
A I was whistling for my cousin to come out of bed, I
heard a noise but Jordan and Tony took them
Q Nothing to do with you
A No I didn’t do it did I
Q At the shell garage Tony was being abusive
A No me as well
Q What did you do
A I said he could shove his fags up his arse
Q You know he said in statement
A I know what he said
Q He said he was being called a cunt and a bastard but
you didn’t say this to him
A No I didn’t say anything else to him
Q You didn’t threaten him with a knife
A No
Q Then Tony got wound up at the house and boasting
A He wasn’t boasting, he just said I stabbed someone, they
got the impression I was a nutter and that
Q He said you stabbed the man
A He was going on about Mr Stanley
Q Tony must have stabbed him not you
A Aye
Q Then you went to Pennywell shops
A Aye
Q Tony pinched some wine
A Check the cameras it wasn’t me
Q Neither you or Jordan did anything wrong
A I was not doing anything wrong
Q As I understand it all you said was shove your fags
up your arse
A Yes
Q So the only thing you did wrong was make unpleasant
comments
A Yes
Q Mr Hill was dealing with a point when David Hawkes
arrived at Terry’s house yesterday. Did you react when you found
this out
A Well I did because I was in his brother’s house and thought
he might make something of it
Q You didn’t leave because you knew someone had been killed
A I left because I heard what he had done
Q You said it was because you were in David’s brothers house
A Well both really
Q When you went to Jordan’s house this was the first place you
went
A Yes
Q You had a conversation at the front door
A Yes
Q At the end of this you went to your Nana’s
A Yes
Q This was about ten thirty
A Don’t know what time it was, might have been earlier
or later
Q When you went Jordan was with you
A Yes
Q Jordan was receiving phone calls telling him the police
were looking for him and he should give himself up
A Jordan was scared because he thought he was going to the
the blame but he decided to go and hand himself in
Q At your Nana’s house there was only you and Jordan
A Yes
Q Jordan leaves the house to go and see her sister and his
brother in-law
A Yes
Q You were then left in the house by yourself
A Yes
Q What did you do from there
A I was at this lasses house for the night, I kept out of the
way
Q Where you with this lass what was her name Alesha, you
went there until the police arrived
A Yes
Q You went to give yourself some time to get away from the police
A Well I stayed there and then went to the hospital
Q When the police turned up at the hospital did you try and get
away
A No I went to the toilet and they pulled me over
Q When you went to your aunties you changed your tracksuit
bottoms
A Yes, I took them off and asked her to throw them away
Q You asked her to throw them away
A Yes
Q You were panicking and kept your head down
A Yes, I knew someone would blame me
Q You went home to change your trousers, how did you get in
A Walked through the front door
Q Was the family in
A Yes
Q Must have been the Sunday then
A Well it must have been
Q What you did……
A Is ran I know I should have handed myself in and I didn’t
Q ……you took the opportunity to take the opportunity to
tell people it was not you
A Yes because it wasn’t
Q The first day you were in the police station you made a comment
and were asked to sign the CR but you refused
A Can’t remember
Q You then realised that the things you were saying were being
written down
A No
Q So you signed things that were true
A No cannot remember
Q You were arrested and said it wasn’t me, I’m not going down
for murder. As you turn the page you say this stabbing is not me
I heard from my solicitor
A Yes I wasn’t sure who stabbed him, I thought Jordan might have
stabbed him as well
Q So what could you mean I’ve heard off my solicitor, you knew
before your very first interview even started what Tony had said
to his dad
A Aye
Q You also knew about the section 18
A No the full lot did not have anything to do with me, I don’t like
people trying to say I killed him when I didn’t
Q Every single thing has nothing to do with you
A It didn’t the murder had nothing to do with me
Q Now we’re getting there, let’s have the truth what did you do
A The comment at the garage that’s it
Q You say you did not know Jamie
A Cos I didn’t know him
Q OK
A That’s what I’m like when I get interviewed but someone dying
is different
Q Jamie Thompson was not about to die. Your first instinct was to say
I didn’t do it, I wasn’t there
A Cos I didn’t do it
Q What effect does drink have on you
A Nowt really I just chill out
Q What do you mean about chill out
A What do you think I mean just chill out
Q Walking the streets is that chilling out
A No
Q Leaving a trail of destruction is that chilling out
A It weren’t me, I didn’t do it
Q Your first instinct was to say things that weren’t true
A I dunno why I said it
Q You to the wrong day deliberately
A I got mixed up
Q You weren’t involved in anything
A No
Q You were telling lies to avoid blame, you know that if
you were there you would be more of a suspect
A I did not kill him, fair enough I told a few lies but I did
not kill him
Q Why did you not just go to the police station
A I don’t know why
Q And say this is what happened
A I didn’t know I had blood on me
Q Most of the night you had a knife
A A Stanley blade
Q You had a knife
A Its a Stanley blade its different, its not a knife
Q When asked you said no
A But then I admitted it after
Q You said no didn’t you, you did not give truthful answers
did you
A No cos I thought Tony would try to blame me
Q So twice you lied
A If I told them I would have been blamed
Q Blamed for what
A Killing Kevin Johnson
Q At that stage you didn’t know what sort of knife had caused
his injuries
A No but I knew I did not put the Stanley blade in him
Q You think there is a difference between a knife and a Stanley blade
A What I had was a blade
Q You did have a knife didn’t you. You know these pages back to
front, you know exactly what incriminates you don’t you
A No
Q You hedged your bets
A I didn’t want to get the blame
Q You were asked again if you had a knife and you said no, do you
see that
A Aye
Q So again that was a lie
A Aye but I’m not lying about the murder
Q You were asked are you positive you didn’t have a knife and you
said positive, why
A I’m not a liar, I know what your trying to do, your trying to point
out to the jury that I am a liar, I’m not about the murder or
section 18
Q Are the things I’ve pointed out the only lies
A Yes
Q You say get the CCTV and then you say that you had a red Stanley
knife because you thought they had CCTV footage showing it
A No I didn’t even see CCTV
Q All the way through your interview you were lying weren’t you
A Certain things aye
Q What sort of knife would you carry
A A pen knife
Q Kitchen knife
A Aye
Q Flick knives
A Yes, you push a button and it comes out
Q Did you show it to someone
A No, it was a flimsy thing
Q In May this year the reason you got stabbed was because
McCabe did not like you did he
A He smashed my mam’s house up
Q In May this year not only would you carry knives but you
would carry more than one
A No, I felt I couldn’t leave the house if I didn’t have one on me
Q By the time you left Partick Road you didn’t think that Jordan
had a knife
A No
Q But you thought Tony had something sharp
A He did he took a knife from Terry Halls
Q So you saw him with a knife
A No not then
Q Did you see Tony with a knife that night
A Aye when the lad got stabbed
Q What type of knife
A You could actually see he had a knife
Q Aye he put it down his trousers like that
A And when you were in the police station you had a
clear memory of this
Q No I forgot about it
A By this stage you were at Partick Road, let me ask you this,
in fact when you were being interviewed were you trying to tell
the truth
A What had happened that night, I wanted to know who killed him
but I did not want to bring myself into it, that’s why I didn’t
really tell them but I realised I had to that’s why I said I
would tell them what happened
Q By the time you told police you weren’t prepared to do anyone any favours,
you would not tell them lies would you. You said in your interview that the lad
said he would knack all three of you
A I just know he fell to me legs
Q The bloke backed away and Tony got onto his feet etc. Tony stabbed him but
I wasn’t sure he had a knife, you did not tell them Tony had a knife
A I realised he had the knife when he put it away after he had done it
Q During midnight and 5/6am Jordan disposed of a knife
A Did not know Jordan disposed of a knife at all
Q Police were asking you whether you saw a knife, that would
cover everything and that was your opportunity to say you saw
Tony with a knife
A I did not really see anyone holding a knife
Q You did not tell the police at any point did you
A No
Q You tell us today he had one
A He had a small kitchen knife and shoved it down his trousers
Q You got a very clear view of that
A Yes
Q Where were you
A Walking down Partick Road
Q Why didn’t you tell the police
A I didn’t think
Q You said earlier he put it in his top
A It was either in his top or in his trousers
Q We have been given a defence statement, we got it on the 8th of
October, paragraph 8, this is signed by you. You say Tony had a blade
that you only saw it briefly, that was the very first time you
mentioned it, you didn’t mention it in interview
A No
Q You only saw it briefly but today your telling us it was a
kitchen knife
A It was
Q Was it his top or his trousers
A Could have been either
Q You have read all of the papers in the case before you
mentioned this
A No
Q If that was the truth you would have told police
A I don’t know why I didn’t say it
Q In fact you said the complete opposite
A I just didn’t say it
Q Because you did not see anyone with a knife that is the truth
A I just forgot all about saying it because I had been drinking
Q Your making bits up to look better for you
A I didn’t know he had a knife until Kevin got killed because I was
smoking cannabis and drinking vodka
Q Smoking cannabis, does this effect your memory
A No I just forgot to say it, all I did was forget to say that
Q You forgot to tell them you heard a noise
A I started remembering but my mind was all over when I was
locked up
Q You forgot to tell the police that you heard Jamie try to sell
Jordan some smack
A I forgot to tell them that
Q Then you were sick
A I was
Q Where was that
A Down the road
Q Before or after you crossed the road
A After I think at the subway
Q There is no subway
A There is I think
Q After you crossed Chester Road
A I can’t remember I cannot remember when it was
Q You were throwing up weren’t you, so how were you not seen
by the Taggart sisters
A I don’t know
Q You don’t go under a subway do you, you made all of this up to try
and get yourself out of it
A No
Q There is no subway is there
A We did go under a subway
Q You had to cut through the hedges and through the field is that
not where you were sick
A It might have been I can’t remember, I know I was sick I just
can’t remember where

Mr Nolan for Jordan Towers

Q Your recollection is that you were lying in the road after Kevin
rugby tackled you
A I wasn’t on the floor he had his arms around me
Q What position were you in when you were shouting get him off is
A I was standing and he had hold of my legs
Q Immediately after that Jordan threw the rock
A Yes
Q Your case is that before he threw the rock, Kevin had already
been stabbed because that is how you got the blood on your trousers
A Yes
Q You are alleging Tony killed him
A Yes
Q And Tony is suggesting you did it
A Yes
Q But no one is suggesting Jordan did it
A No
Q Jordan became under a lot of pressure from you and Tony,
you have tried to persuade Jordan to come onto your side and Tony
is doing the same
A No, Jordan is saying he does not know who did it so why would he
say that
Q Were both of you pressuring him
A No I just said if you seen it tell them what happened
Q So you accept you spoke to him about it
A I just said tell them if you did not see me do it
Q That is exactly what I am suggesting. Moving to Greenwood Road,
you said you got mixed up between who said it’s Jamie
A I can’t remember who said it, it could have been Tony
Q We heard from Tony that it was him
A It could have been aye, I don’t know
Q You also said it was Jordan and Tony who was the closest to Jamie
A Yes
Q It was Jordan who sat on the wall really
A No
Q It has already been said by Jamie that the shortest one sat on the wall
A He’s wrong

Mr Woodcock for the Crown

Q There was quite a lot of drink that night wasn’t there
A Yeah, I had quite a lot
Q But it is not being suggested by you that you have no memory of
this night
A I can’t remember certain bits, but most of it
Q You remember where you went and who you were with
A Aye
Q You remember the various bits that we have covered
A Yes but I forgot bits of it
Q I’m not suggesting that you have forgot little bits but your
not saying that drink has played a greater part that you can’t remember
what you did or who you were with
A Yes
Q You said in interview that Jordan had quite a bit to drink
A I don’t remember how much he had to drink
Q Tony had a lot of drink as well
A He did aye
Q At some point all three of you went into a taxi office and bought
something from a vending machine
A Yes
Q One of the things was that Tony paid a debt
A Didn’t say he did
Q He paid £4
A I can’t remember no
Q Do you agree you got some stuff from a vending machine
A Yes
Q You told us how long you have known Tony and your
association with Jordan
A Aye
Q Do you agree with Tony that it was a fairly established pattern
that you, Jordan and Tony would walk Grindon and Pennywell
A No, it would be now and then, they had other mates and they would
sometimes go out with them
Q But there were occasions when you would walk the streets together
A Aye
Q And Jordan
A Sometimes he would not be there and sometimes Tony would not be
there
Q Breaking into cars
A No, a couple of years ago I used to do daft things like that
Q Breaking into sheds and houses
A No
Q Stealing copper from derelict houses
A No
Q You told us about when you were stabbed, this was Friday the
13th of January 2006
A Yes
Q You’ve told us that since that day on occasions you would carry
a knife
A For self protection yes
Q To that I will return, the incident on the 13th of January was an
attack by JM
A Yes
Q Took place at your mother’s house
A Aye
Q Mr McCabe had turned up at 4am and attacked the door of your
mothers house
A The windows as well, aye
Q When you came down to help your mother there was a fight
between the two of you during which you were stabbed in the arm
A Yes
Q Since that night in January 2006 you tell the jury that there had
been occasions when you would carry a knife
A When I thought he was kicking about aye
Q I want to understand what you mean by carrying a knife for
self protection. You told the jury that carrying a knife would be
against the possibility of coming into contact with your cousin.
But you were no where near your cousins
A Its not far but the Stanley blade was for cutting the bottles
Q In what circumstances would produce a knife
A Just to threaten him, but not stab him
Q Let us suppose you met your cousin in the street and
this caused you concern, what would make you pull it
out
A If I saw him coming at me with knife
Q What if he didn’t have a weapon
A I would keep it in my pocket
Q Tony and you visited the property of EP, I will remind
you of something she has told the jury. She said that there
was a point when she went upstairs to bed and she was on
the same bed as Tony
A Yes that’s true
Q She said we were just sitting having a talk and the Tony said
I had a fight with this kid you nar, me, Dean and Jordan, he came
out and started shouting at us and hitting is. Dean then said do
you know this fight with this kid, well I had to dee him in.
A Nar nowt like that
Q Did you say those things
A We were talking about the fight and he told is to leave the room.
Tony was on the bed with EP, I went to jump on top of him he got
the samurai sword and he tried to stab is with it
Q Was Tony on the bed with EP
A Yes
Q Did you go up to that room with the bed
A Yes
Q Did you say I had to come over and get him off you
A No, she must be lying for Tony, she must be
Q At some point are you saying that during the conversation
Tony attacked you with a samurai sword
A Yeah, he got it and I wouldn’t get out so he picked it up and
came at is
Q Tony said he had a fight with this kid, Dean and Jordan, a
man came out and started shouting at him, at this point she
says you came upstairs and started to talk to him
A No I tried to jump on top of him
Q Did you say I had to dee him in
A No
Q I had to come and get him off you, that’s when I started braying him
A No
Q Right at the end and the hours leading up to your arrest, there came
a time when you visited Jordan, the next morning
A yes
Q Present was Marie Tower and Jordan
A Marie wasn’t there she was in the sitting room
Q And Donna Gibson
A I didn’t see her
Q What sort of state were you in at this time
A OK
Q Sober
A Yes
Q A little guilty perhaps
A I did but at this time I didn’t know exactly what happened
Q So when you went to Jordan’s was it an ordinary visit after
an ordinary scrap in the street
A I just went over
Q Why did you go to see Jordan
A Because I just couldn’t believe what happened
Judge – You said a moment ago you could not believe what
had happened, what was it you couldn’t believe
A Someone was stabbed, David Hawkes told Tony that
Q Your saying you could not believe someone had been stabbed
A Yes
Q Your saying you didn’t feel guilty
A I did but I didn’t know someone had died then
Q Wasn’t it your purpose to discuss with Jordan what you would
say about it
A No
Q So you calling had nothing to do with the night before
A Absolutely nothing nar
Q But when you called on him it was made very very clear to
you that some lad had died
A Jordan came to the door, he was cock eyed and dead pale
Q That’s what I want to ask you about, though you didn’t go on
to talk about the death amongst the first things he said was that
someone had died
A He came to the door he was cock eyed and I laughed
Q What on earth was funny when he came to the door
A Just the way he put it, I wouldn’t laugh because someone had
died
Q Wouldn’t you
A Nar
Q Because Marsha Newby said you were all laughing when you
ran off, you couldn’t care less could you
A No I’m not that stupid
Q Well lets see how stupid you are shall we. After leaving Kevin
you found yourself in Greenwood Road and before you meet Jamie
you knew perfectly well that someone in your midst had used a knife
A Aye
Q According to you it wasn’t you and you weren’t to happy
A Cos I though he could have died
Q Then why stick around with Jordan or Tony, why
A I don’t know really
Q I dare say the jury sense regret in that but why did you
stay with them at that time
A I don’t know we were just going to the lasses
Q The possibility of him being killed had already occurred to you
A The possibility
Q That did not alter your plans at all you just carried on
A I didn’t know for definite he was stabbed
Q You thought one of them was still armed
A I was not paying too much attention, I was smoking dope
Q Come on Dean come on, why didn’t you just leave them there
A Cos I didn’t
Q Then you come across Jamie Thompson
A Yes he was stabbed by the same knife that killed the kid
Q Yes that is a scientific certainty
A Yes
Q By someone in your group
A Yes
Q In the circumstances described by Jamie Thompson
A I didn’t stab him
Q That didn’t stop you did it
A I didn’t know he got stabbed
Q Whoever stabbed him did he keep it a secret
A He ran off did you not think that was strange
Q No he just ran off
A What was it that you saw Jamie do or say that made him
run off
A Nothing, he called him by his first name to Tony, fought him
and he ran away
Q Who fought him
A Just Tony
Q Did you not ask Tony what this fight was about
A No
Q On the other hand you knew what this fight was about didn’t
you
A No
Q Because on the other side of the road you saw him walking along
didn’t you
A Aye
Q Thank you, and Jordan crossed the road
A Can’t remember
Q And you crossed over
A No we were on the same side we did not cross
Q And Jordan’s job was for
A He just asked him for a fag
Q But he didn’t need a cigarette, neither did you or Tony
A Don’t know
Q The three of you tried to tease him into a fight
A No its got nowt to do with me
Q A weapon was withdrawn and plunged into Jamie’s chest
A I did not see a weapon
Q But you still stayed with them
A Yes
Q After a while you end up at the shell garage
A Yes
Q Poor old Mr Shakir was subjected to an undeserved attack
A He was behind the glass
Q Lucky him
A He was pretty safe
Q Oh was he, wasn’t safe the next day was he
A Don’t know what he’s saying that for, its not true, I said
stick your fags up your arse
Q You didn’t say nothing to him did you not
A No
Q You said I’ll chop you off
A What does that mean, I’ll chop you off
Q He said that male produced a knife he had the blade
fully pushed out
A How did I not cut myself with it
Q I accept you pulled the knife out after rummaging for change
but when you pulled it out you were in a flying rage and you used
the knife to enforce your threat
A No not at all
Q It is in that state of mind that when you encountered Kevin you
too were as threatening the rest
A I didn’t know about the section 18, the murder I did but I didn’t
realise how serious it was
Q I am suggesting you were in as much of a rage with Mr
Shakir as you were with Kevin Johnson
A No
Q When you were circling Kevin there were knives on display
and at that moment these words meet me mate Stanley were
first muttered
A No
Q That’s what Tony says
A He knows I had a Stanley knife he want to get me in trouble
Q These words cropped up a number of times before you were
arrested
A Yes
Q And they cropped up because you were involved in the
stabbIng of Kevin Johnson
A No
Q When you first went to call on Jordan you had no idea what
you were going to say to the police did you
A No
Q It was important that if you possibly could you would tell
the same story
A No
Q When you were arrested you were told that you weren’t
all telling the same story
A Aye
Q That’s why you did say I’m having fuck all to do with Tony,
he even told his dad he did it, it wasn’t me it was Tony and
Jordan
A No it was Tony
Q Oddly your saying that now, it was Jordan and Tony
A Jordan threw the brick and Tony killed him
Q We know Jordan threw a knife away did you tell him
to do it
A No
Q He made the decision himself
A It was off when he was cutting the grass, it was when the
police came up he threw it over the fence
Q You knew each of you were armed
A I didn’t know Jordan was armed and I did not know Tony
was armed, I never murdered anyone and I never stabbed anyone
Q You called on your mates to find out what they were saying but
you knew the truth already
A No all I know is Tony did it

Mr Hill

Q It has been suggested by the prosecution that you knew Tony
had a weapon. Firstly did you know that Tony had a knife when
you first went out with him
A No
Q Secondly when you heard the hissing of tyres did you actually
see him attacking those tyres
A No I just heard them
Q At that point did you know what caused those tyres to hiss
A No
Q Can you remember what was crossing your mind when you heard
it
A I just didn’t think much of it
Q When did you first think that anybody had a knife
A When Tony was raking about the kitchen but I did not see him
with anything
Q When was that
A When I was at his aunties, when he kicked me in the head
Q Did he produce anything
A NO
Q When did you know for certain
A When he told me had stabbed Kevin in the chest
Q What was the first you saw he had a knife
A When he was putting the metal thing away
Q Again after he got stabbed
A Aye
Q As far as Jordan is concerned is there any point when
you saw Jordan with a knife
A No
Q You told the police that Jordan was not like that
A He wasn’t no
Q But Tony was warped, a psychopath, tell us what made you
think this
A Just the way he goes on
Q Had you ever heard about him stabbing anyone before that night
A No
Q ProSecution have asked why you never left Tony after Kevin,
did you know how bad it was when you left the scene
A No, I didn’t think much of it, I said why did you stab him in
the chest
Judge – You knew he had been stabbed in the chest
A Aye
Q When
A When Tony told me
Q You say seen Kevin pulling at his shirt
A Yes
Q I remember you saying you saw no blood
A NO
Q When Tony said he stabbed him in the chest, at that
point was there any thought in your mind about what
he had done
A I seen him walk away so I didn’t think much of it
Q By that you mean Kevin
A. Yes
Q As far as Jamie is concerned can you remember anything
that was leading to him being stabbed
A No
Q When was the first you knew of it
A I didn’t really realise it until the police locked me up
Q This reference to Mr Stanley, how many times did anyone
refer to Mr Stanley
A Tony did aye
Q Did anyone else at that stage
A No
Q How many times did Tony say Mr Stanley
A He wanted to say something because the came in the house
with a 15 year old lass, so instead of him saying he did it he said
I did because the were starting on is and that
Q You were asked a few minutes ago about something you said
at southshields police station, less than an half hour after your final
interview that concluded
A Aye
Q It was read out to the jury, the first thing you said was I’ll go to
prison for a long time, it wasn’t me it was my mate. Which mate were
you referring to
A Tony
Q Me mate then threw a brick at him, who was that
A Jordan
Q Were you just saying this, you weren’t asked
A Aye
Q Had you any idea where the knife was
A No
Q If you did what would you have done
A Told them where it was
Q It has been suggested you found this amusing
A I didn’t at all, he was dead I wouldn’t laugh at something like that

Released