EVIDENCE OF TONY HAWKES
Mr Bloomfield
Q. Your still 17
A. Yes
Q. How tall are you
A. About six foot
Q. Right handed or left handed
A. Right handed
Q. On the 18th of May 2007 during the day where had
you been
A. Just walking about mainly, been in the house first
Q. Who's house
A. Mam's house 76 Forest Road
Q. What were you doing
A. Just called in really
Q. You went out
A. Yes when Dean and Jordan knocked on for me about
6-8ish in the evening
Q. What did they come round for
A. To see if I was coming out
Q. Were you
A. Yes
Q. What were you wearing
A. Navy blue Adidas bottoms or black ones,
white Nike trainers
Q. And top
A. Bench jacket
Q. The one we have seen
A. Yes
Q. Did you have anything on underneath
the jacket
A. Cream jumper with squares on it
Q. Anything on your head
A. Blue Adidas hat with red lines going all the way
around it
Q. Scarf
A. No
Q. Gloves
A. Yes
Q. Anything to drink before you went out
A. No
Q. What was the purpose of going out
A. Just waiting for someone to knock on for is
Q. When Dean and Jordan came you went out with them,
was there any reason to go out with them
A. They are my friends, they are who I knock about with
Q. Did you have anything planned
A. No
Q. Did you take anything with you
A. Bottle of two litre wine
Q. Any weapons with you
A. No
Q. Knives
A. No
Q. Did you have anything in your possession that might
cause injury to anyone
A. No
Q. Did you have anything else
A. A screwdriver
Q. Flat headed screwdriver, how long
A. About 8 inches including the handle
Q. Flat headed
A. Yes
Q. Had it been sharpened in any way
A. No
Q. Why did you have it
A. Break into cars
Q. How will you use that to break into cars
A. Popping the car window or doing the lock
Q. How would you do the lock
A. Stick it in wiggle it about until the lock goes
slack and pull it out
Q. Did you try to steal any cars that night
A. Bent a car door back
Q. When
A. Later on
Q. Before or after Partick Road
A. After
Q. Was that in the Grindon area
A. Yes
Q. What did you do to that door
A. Bent it back and had a look about the car
Q. Did you try to start it
A. It had a stick on the steering wheel I was
trying to get it of
Q. Were you able to remove that
A. No
Q. Was there anything in the car of interest to you
A. No
Q. Did you try to break into any other cars
A. I was looking about to see if I could see anything
in other cars
Q. Did you see anything that interested you
A. No
Q. You did not have a weapon with you, you had a
screwdriver, did Dean have a knife
A. Dean said he had a knife but I did not think
anything of it
Q. When did he say that
A. When we were making our way up to Pennywell-Grindon,
whilst we were walking to Grindon
Q. Before or after you went to Partick Road
A. Before
Q. You did not think anything of it
A. No he caries them al the time
Q. Did he show you the knife
A. No
Q. Did he show you any weapons
A. No
Q. Did Jordan tell you if he had any weapons
A. No
Q. You know he took the police to a knife, did you know
he had that knife with him
A. No
Q. When you were looking in cars did you look to
steal them
A. Sometimes
Q. What other interests did you have in the cars
A. Car radios and satellite navigation
Q. What would you have done with them
A. Sold them on
Q. In fact you did not manage to find any
A. No
Q. What was the purpose of walking around
Pennywell
A. It was a regular thing
Q. Drinking
A. Yes
Q. What
A. Wine at first
Q. Dean
A. He had two or three cans with him and
some wine
Q. Cans of what, beer
A. Yes
Q. Think he had some wine, Jordan
A. Nothing
Q. From your house you were drinking as you go,
where did you go from there
A. To Jordan's so he could get changed
Q. Any reason why he wanted to get changed
A. He had his good clothes on
Q. He wanted to change out of them into what
A. Some old clothes
Q. Was there any reason why he wanted to put
old clothes on
A. Normally when we were out stealing sometimes
we would get arrested, when you've got your
good clothes on you do not get them back for months
Q. What clothes were you wearing
A. Same as I had on when I went out
Q. Good or old
A. Good clothes really
Q. You went to Jordan's, did he get changed
A. Yes
Q. Where did he go after that
A. Back to Forest Road
Q. Anything happen when you were making that
journey
A. No
Q. Where did you go
A. Walked past my house and I bumped into the
drink doctor
Q. Who or what is the drink doctor
A. Person who you after hours for beer
Q. Does he wander around on foot or in a vehicle
A. He was in a vehicle I waved him over and he
pulled over
Q. What time was this
A. 8-9pm
Q. Did you buy anything
A. Bottle of vodka
Q. Who bought that
A. Me
Q. Can you remember how big it was
A. A litre bottle or next one down
Q. Where did you go from there
A. Went to my mam's house to get a bottle of pop
Q. What sort of pop did you get
A. Coca cola
Q. What did you do with it
A. Poured some out and poured vodka in
Q. What happened with the rest of the vodka
A. Think I put it in my pocket
Q. What happened to the other bottle
A. It got passed around most of us
Q. Did Dean have any
A. Yes
Q. Jordan
A. He was having sips
Q. Where were you going
A. Walking the streets, making our way to
Pennywell
Q. Are you known in Pennywell
A. Not really no
Q. Why did you go there
A. We were going to Grindon, cutting through Pennywell
Q. By Midnight you got to Partick Road, was the
wine gone by this stage and Dean finished his cans
Q. Did Jordan have anything
A. Nothing until the vodka
Q. Were you tipsy
A. Yes
Q. Dean
A. Yes
Q. Jordan
A. No I would not say he was drunk
Q. By the time you got to Partick Road
you were walking down heading towards the
bottom to turn right and down the cut
A. Yes
Q. By the time you got down the bottom how
long had you been drinking
A. Say about 3 hours or something
Q. Vodka and coke did you still have any
A. No we'd finished it
Q. The rest of the vodka in the bottle what
happened to that
A. Dean had it
Q. Were you drinking any
A. Dean was drinking it
Q. Was Jordan drinking any
A. No
Q. Did you want some of it
A. Yes
Q. Did you ask Dean for some
A. Yes
Q. Did he let you have any
A. No he just kept drinking it
Q. Did you keep asking
A. Yes
Q. What were you saying when you kept asking
A. I remember us arguing as we were walking
down the street
Q. What were the sound levels like, loud, quiet
A. Not really loud
Q. As you walked down, Kevin Johnson's house is
on the left had side
A. Yes
Q. Did you walk on the same side as them
A. Yes on the pavement
Q. When you got to Kevin Johnson's what happened
A. We were arguing as we walked past, a man came
to the window and said keep the fucking noise
down or I'll come out there and punch all three
of you's all over
Q. This was from inside the house
A. Yes, upstairs
Q. Was the window open or closed
A. He opened it
Q. Do you now know who that man was
A. No
Q. You had never seen him before
A. No
Q. Did any of your group say anything
A. Dean said you couldn't do nowt you daft cunt
Q. What sort of voice was he saying that in
A. He just shouted up at him really
Q. Did you say anything
A. Didn't say nowt
Q. What about Jordan
A. No
Q. What did you do
A. Nothing
Q. Did you stop or keep on walking
A. We al kept on walking while Dean was saying
this to him
Q. What happened next, three of you still together
A. Yes, facing the was we were walking
Q. Who was in front
A. We were al in a row really
Q. Did you think anything more of what had
been said
A. No
Q. Were you expecting him to come out of his house
A. No
Q. Did he
A. Yes
Q. When he came out what was the first you knew
he was there
A. Footsteps
Q. Whereabouts were they
A. Behind me
Q. You heard them behind you what do you remember
happened after that
A. He struck me between my temple and my ear
Q. Did you still have your back to him
A. I was turning around as I heard footsteps
Q. How strong was the punch
A. Strong
Q. How many times were you punched
A. Twice
Q. In the head
A. No one in the arm
Judge – Which arm
A. Right on the back near the shoulder
Q. What effect did the punches have on you
A. Made me fall to the floor
Q. Did you get up
A. Yes
Q. What did you see was happening
A. He was punching Dean
Q. Where were they
A. On the other side of the road
Judge – were you both on the floor
A. Kevin Johnson was on top of Dean, Dean
was on his back and Kevin was on top of him
Q. Neither were standing up
A. No
Q. Kevin was on top, how was he in relation
to Dean
A. He was kneeling down, looked like he had his
leg on him
Q. What was he doing to Dean
A. Flinging punches at each other
Q. Which direction was Kevin Punching
A. Downwards
Q. And Dean
A. Upwards
Q. At this stage where was Jordan
A. Further back on the corner
Q. When you saw Dean on the ground with
Kevin on top of him, what did you do
A. Jordan walked over and tried to pull Kevin of Dean
Q. How did he take hold of him, did he succeed
A. No
Q. What did you do
A. As I got up I was walking towards him, Jordan
stepped back and started walking backwards I flung
a few punches at Kevin
Q. Why
A. Because he had my friend on the floor
Q. Did you connect
A. Yes
Q. Where
A. Back of his head and his back
Q. Did you do anything else
A. Pulled him of by getting him in an headlock and
pulling him back
Q. Did you manage to pull him of
A. Yes
Q. What happened to Kevin
A. He got up quick
Q. You managed to pull him of, could you see if Dean
was doing anything
A. Dean was getting up on his feet
Q. When Kevin got back on his feet what happened then
A. He punched me or something, I fell to the floor
and went dizzy
Judge – Kevin Johnson punched you
A. Yes
Q. Were you aware of anything happening to make
you become dizzy
A. I don't know I just fell to the floor dizzy
Q. Did you get a look at the knife
A. Yes
Q. How good a look
A. Not that good just got a glimpse of it
Q. Were you able to see how long it was
A. I would say canny long
Q. He was waving it in your face, was he saying it
A. Yes, he was saying I'm no mug, I'm no mug
Q. Meaning him
A. Yes
Q. What did he mean by that
A. He must have thought I was thinking he
was an idiot
Q. Did he say anything else
A. Not that I can remember no
Q. How did you fell about him waving the knife
in your face
A. I was agitated
Q. What did you do
A. Snatched it out of his hand
Q. Was he still having a go at you
A. He was asking for it back
Q. Did you give it back
A. No
Q. Did he say anything else to you
A. There was a man walking up the street
Q. What did he say
A. He said I bet you wouldn't stab him who
is walking up
Q. Do you know who that man was
A. No
Q. Was that the man that you stabbed
A. Yes
Q. Did you know who he was
A. Not until I got a bit closer
Q. Did you realise it was Jamie Thompson
A. Yes
Q. You knew and recognised him as Jamie Thompson
A. Yes
Q. We know that you stabbed Jamie Thompson that
evening
A. Yes
Q. Did you cross the road
A. Jordan crossed over and spoke to him first
Q. Did you know that Jordan was going to cross
the road and speak to him
A. No
Q. And how far away from Jordan were you
A. About 5 minutes away
Q. Were you still with Dean
A. Yes
Q. But you were crossing the road with Dean, what
was he saying to you
A. Yes go on stab him then you little puff
Q. Who spoke to Jamie Thompson first
A. Jordan
Q. You went up to Jamie is that right
A. Yes
Q. Was Dean still with you when you approached Jamie
A. Yes
Q. You mentioned his name
A. Yes
Q. And then you stabbed him
A. Yes
Q. The knife you used to stab him how did you
do it
A. I didn't mean to cause him serious harm
Q. How did you do it
A. I leant in and stabbed him
Q. Why did you stab him
A. Because Dean was egging me on
Q. Dean was daring you saying I bet you wouldn't
stab him
A. Yes
Q. As you got up to him what was Dean saying
A. Just egging is on really
Q. You stabbed him, how hard
A. Not hard
Q. How many times
A. Just once
Q. After you'd stabbed him the once what did
you do
A. Ran away
Q. Did you chase him
A. No
Q. Did either Jordan or Dean chase him
A. No
Q. Where did the three of you go
A. Ran across the road to Greenwood Road
Q. Where did you go
A. Down a road with trees and that next to it
Q. Where do you run to
A. Jordan's cousin
Q. Who is Jordan's cousin
A. Melanie Mckeith
Q. What happened to the knife
A. I don't know I never got to see it after that
Q. Did you throw it away
A. Can't remember
Judge – You remember holding it
A. Yes
Judge – What did you do with it from there
A. Can't remember
Q. Did you give it to Dean
A. Don't know
Q. When you went to Melanie's was anything said about what had happened
A. No
Q. When you got there what happened
A. Jordan went in me and Dean stopped outside
Q. Did you still have the knife at that stage
A. No
Q. Did you look at that time to see if you had
the knife
A. I searched my pockets
Q. Was it there
A. No
Q. When was the last time you remember actually
having it
A. When I stabbed Jamie
Q. How long were you at Melanie's house
A. About 5 minutes
Q. Jordan went in is that right
A. Yes
Q. You and Dean stayed outside
A. Yes
Q. Was there any conversation
A. Yes about where we were going next
Judge – Nothing was said about what you had just done
A. Can't remember
Q. When you were talking outside of Melanie's house
where did you decide you were going to go
A. Look for some cars
Q. Where were you going to look for them
A. Around the estate
Q. From Melanie's you went looking for cars
A. Went to Dean's aunties
Q. On Gleneagles Road
A. Yes
Q. Was there any particular reason why you went
there
A. Dean did not tell us
Q. When you got there what did you do
A. Dean looked through the window then knocked
on the door
Q. Anyone answer
A. No
Q. What did you do
A. Dean walked into the side of the house and told
me to go around the back with him
Q. What did you go around the back for
A. Don't know he just told me to go round
Q. Who went around
A. All 3 of us
Q. What did you do
A. Stood in next door's garden
Q. Once your in what did you do there
A. Dean pulled some Adidas tracksuit bottoms
of the line
Q. What do you do with them
A. Dean put a pair on and I put a pair on
Q. When you say you put a pair on did you take
the ones you had on of
A. No I left them on and put them over the top,
Dean did the same
Q. Did either of you dump tracksuit bottoms
at that stage
A. No
Q. Did you help yourselves to anything else
at that stage
A. Two pedal bikes
Q. Where were they
A. In the shed
Q. How did you get into the shed
A. Pulled the door open
Q. You say you took two bikes, how far did
those bikes get ridden
A. To the shell garage
Q. Who was on which bikes
A. I was on the mountain bike and Dean was
peddling the BMX with Jordan on the stunt pegs
Q. You next ended up at the shell garage
A. Yes
Q. Were you aware of Jordan disposing of a
knife on the way
A. No
Q. When you got to the garage were you still
on the mountain bike
A. Yes
Q. And the BMX
A. Dean and Jordan
Q. Where did you put it
A. Around the front
Q. Where did the BMX go
A. Around the back
Q. From there some of you went to the serving
hatch to get served can you rememberwho went
there first
A. I think it was Dean
Q. How was Dean behaving
A. He was asking for stuff and when the
shopkeeper walked away he asked for something
else
Q. Is that instead of or as well
A. He was winding the shopkeeper up
Q. How did the man in the petrol station
take to that
A. He said he would not serve us
Q. How did you react to that
A. I was asking him to serve me, I asked him
for some fags and he said he wasn't serving any
of us
Q. What did you say
A. I started shouting
Q. What did you shout
A. I shouted abuse but cannot remember what
Q. You shouted abuse, was any of this racist
A. No
Q. Apart from shouting did you do anything
A. I was kicking the cones
Q. How was Jordan
A. Quiet
Q. Dean you said had been winding the man up
A. Yes
Q. How was he
A. Started getting angry
Q. Did he say anything
A. Yes
Q. What
A. Calling him names
Q. Did he do anything
A. He went around the side and picked up
a brick
Q. Did he do anything with the brick
A. Flung it at the window
Q. Did you throw any objects at the window
A. No
Q. We know from the witness statements that
the attendant said one of you had a knife
was that you
A. No
Q. Who was it
A. Dean
Q. Was Dean doing anything with it
A. He cut one side of his face with it
Q. Did he show it to the man at the petrol
station
A. Yes
Q. When he showed it did he say anything
A. He said I'll cut you up
Q. What was it that made you leave the
petrol station
A. I don't know I saw Jordan walking away so I
started following him

Q. What about the bikes
A. I wheeled one across the road, the BMX got
left behind the garage
Q. Where did you go from there
A. Nookside
Q. Maple Road is that right
A. Yes
Q. Then where
A. Up to Hylton Road
Q. Anything happen in the park
A. Dean stole a box of fire lighters from the
garage and flinging them up in the air
Q. When they were alight
A. Yes
Q. Went through Hylton Road and round to Rocket
Taxis
A. Yes
Q. You gave him some money you owed
A. Yes
Q. Did you buy anything
A. Crisps from the vending machine
Q. Where did you go from there
A. Colin Thompson's house
Q. Mountain bike still with you
A. Yes
Q. Who was riding it
A. Jordan
Q. Did you have any drink with you
A. No
Q. How long were you there for
A. About an hour
Q. Jordan still with you
A. Yes
Q. Where did you go from there
A. Jordan went home and me and Dean went to
my aunty Terry's
Q. Do you know what time you went there
A. No
Q. How did you get in
A. Door's were already open
Q. When you got there what did you do
A. Dean sat downstairs and I went up to wake
my aunty terry up
Q. How long were you there for
A. Couple of hours
Q. Anyone else come to the house
A. Yes
Q. Who
A. EP  and two other lads
Q. How did EP come to be at the house
A. In the mini cooper
Q. Did you invite her around
A. Yes
Q. With the two lads
A. Yes
Q. Is that Kenny and Dean that we have
heard about
A. Yes
Q. Did they bring anything with them
A. They brought cans in
Q. Anything else
A. Cannabis and Cocaine
Q. They brought some cans did you and Dean
have some drink
A. Bottle of vodka
Q. Where did you get that
A. Don't know
Q. How were things
A. Alright
Q. How did Dean get on with them
A. Not too good
Q. In what way
A. The lads didn't like some of the things
that were coming out of his mouth
Q. What sort of things were coming out of
his mouth
A. The things that happened that night
Q. Like what
A. When Kevin died and the section 18
Q. At that time you did not know that Kevin
had died and you had not been arrested for
the section 18 so what was he saying
A. That I was getting knacked and that he
had to help me
Q. Did he mean during the fight or at the house
A. During the fight
Q. He said he had to help did he say
anything else
A. I don't know
Q. Can you tell us what he did
A. Yes
Q. What did he say that he did
A. That he stabbed someone
Q. Did he say who he stabbed
A. No
Q. How long was he talking about the
fight for
A. Can't remember
Q. What did Kenny and Dean say about
the fight
A. They thought Dean was doing their
heads in
Q. Did they say anything about Dean
doing their heads in
A. They said to me you better tell him
to shut up or we'll punch his head in
Q. Did you tell him to shut up
A. No
Q. Why
A. I'm not going to tell him to shut up
Q. Did he carry on talking about the fight
A. I can't remember
Q. Did you hear Dean say anything to
EP about the fight
A. Dean started talking to everyone
about it, he mentioned Mr Stanley
Q. What did he say about Mr Stanley
A. They al started laughing
Q. Why
A. Reaction really, just started laughing
Q. Can you remember what he said
A. No
Q. I presume the conversation about
the fight came to an end
A. Yes
Q. You left the house and were found
asleep is that right
A. Yes
Q. You went back to the house
A. Yes
Q. The second time who did you go with
A. Dean and Rapho
Q. You went back the second time to get
some food
A. Yes we went to Greggs
Q. Did you buy anything
A. Sausage roll or pastie
Q. What else
A. Spilt a bottle of wine from Iceland
Q. I believe that you then hid this in
the bushes.
A. Yes
Q. We reached the stage when you had been to
Greggs, and went back to Terry Hall's
A. Yes
Q. What sort of state were you in now
A. Canny drunk
Q. Where were you when your dad came
A. Upstairs in one of the bedrooms, I think
I was asleep
Q. Did you speak to your dad
A. Yes
Q. Just before you spoke to him were you
awake or asleep
A. Just been asleep
Q. You were woken to speak to your dad
A. Yes
Q. What sort of state were you in
A. Still drunk
Q. What was he asking you
A. About what the fight was about
Q. Do you remember what you said
A. I think I said I stabbed someone
Q. Did you tell him you stabbed Kevin Johnson
A. No
Q. Did you tell your dad who stabbed Kevin
A. Don't know
Q. Your Dad's witness statement continues that
Dean stabbed the man also
A. No I meant Dean stabbed someone and I had
stabbed someone
Q. Continues by saying he was out of it with the
vodka and needed more sleep
A. Yes
Q. But after you had had some sleep you would
hand yourself in to the police
A. Yes
Q. You told him you were wearing the same
clothing as you had on when you stabbed
the man but you put a pair of tracksuit bottoms
down the drain was that correct
A. Yes
Q. He then continued by saying you put a pair of
tracksuit bottoms down a drain, did you tell your
dad that
A. No
Q. Had you put any tracksuit bottoms down the drain
A. No
Q. Had anyone put any tracksuit bottoms down a drain
A. Don't know
Q. Your dad's statement continues by saying
the one's put down the drain had blood on them,
was that right
A. No
Q. When you were talking to your dad where
were the tracksuit bottoms that you had
on the night before
A. Still had them on
Q. Your dad's statement continues saying
that you said you did not stab him hard
A. Yes
Q. You didn't tell him where the knife was
A. Yes
Q. The man you stabbed got to his feet and
walked away
A. No
Q. In fact that conversation took place at
Angela 's
A. I remember talking to him in the garden
Q. Before that you spoke to him at Terry's
can you remember what was said
A. He was asking about the fight and what
I had done
Q. Your dad left and you made your way
to Angela's
A. Yes
Q. When you turned up you had a samurai sword,
where did you get that from
A. My aunty Terry's
Q. What did you have that for
A. Don't know just took it with is
Judge – What for
A. I don't know I just picked it up
and took it with is
Q. You got to Angela's did you manage
to get in the house at first
A. I walked to the back door
Q. Did you actually manage to get in
A. I opened the door and she was already
in the kitchen
Q. She let you in
A. No she said the bairn's were asleep
in the sitting room
Q. Did she let you in
A. I just sat on the step
Q. Were you awake or asleep
A. Awake at that time
Q. We know your father came and spoke to
you again at Angela's house
A. Yes
Q. Where were you at that point
A. I must have woken up as Angela guided
me upstairs
Q. What do you mean by that
A. I was still drunk so I would have ended
up falling backwards down the stairs
Q. I think you were then woken up and came
down and spoke to your dad in the garden, the
conversation we have already dealt with. At
what point did you discover that someone had died
A. When I was in my aunty Terry's house
Q. Who told you
A. Me aunty Terry
Q. Did you know at that stage whether it was
Kevin or Jamie who had died
A. No not really
Q. How did you feel when you were told this
A. Did not believe it at first
Q. When did you believe it
A. I needed to hear it from somebody else
Q. So when did you believe it
A. When my dad was telling me that someone
had died
Q. Was that at Terry's or Angela's
A. Terry's
Q. You were put in your dads van and taken
to your mothers
A. Yes
Q. In fact when you got there you were arrested,
can you remember that
A. Yes
Q. You were taken to the police station
A. Yes
Q. On your arrest you were spoken to can
you remember what you said when you were arrested
A. I think something like it was self defence, he
came out and punched us
Q. You knew you were being arrested for murder
is that correct
A. Yes
Q. What did you mean
A. That he came running out of the house
at us
Q. You told the police to see Dean Curtis
and Jordan Towers
A. Yes
Q. What did you mean by that
A. That they were there with me
Q. At the police station you were
interviewed
A. Yes
Q. In the first you made no comment to pretty
much all the questions
A. Yes
Q. The second interview your solicitor
red out a prepared statement do you remember that
A. Yes
Q. That was on Sunday the 20th May.
You said you went out with friends
A. Yes
Q. You say you did not have a knife or
blade in your possession
A. Yes
Q. Nor did I have a knife given to me
during the night, is that correct
A. No
Q. You then said nor did I use any knife
or bladed weapon and I did not stab anyone
A. No
Q. You accept that those are not correct
A. No
Q. How did this come to be in your statement
A. I did stab someone
Judge – How did those words become to be used
A. Don't know
Q. On the face of it they seem to be untrue,
this is read out as your words
A. Yes
Q. Why are things being put in that are not true
A. Don't know
Q. You were interviewed at that stage, what
did you think the interview was about
A. Well Kevin Johnson
Q. Did you think you were being interviewed
at that stage about Jamie Thompson
A. No
Q. If you thought it had been about Jamie
 would you have said the same things to
your solicitor
A. No
Q. You continued to be interviewed on 3
further occasions, if the fifth your solicitor
read out a further statement on your behalf
A. Yes
Q. You were just wandering around, Dean looked
at a man in a window in Pennywell the man came
out shouting things, is that right
A. Yes
Q. Dean started arguing back
A. Back
Q. You say Dean was also saying things like do
you know my mate Stanley, is that what he said
A. Can't remember
Q. You then went onto say the man said he would
fight us all, he then ran and punched me in the
head and arms, I then ran across the road is that
correct
A. No I never ran across the road
Q. You then said Jordan and Dean went straight
for the man and attacked him
A. Dean did
Q. But Jordan did not so that is not correct
A. No
Q. You say I played no part in the attack
is that correct
A. No
Q. What part did you play
A. I threw the punches and pulled him off
Q. You continue saying after a bit the other two
were winding me up about not joining in the attack
A. Dean did
Q. You then said it was only after this that I was
certain the other two had knives
A. Dean not Jordan
Q. In effect when you were saying the statement to
your solicitor you actually meant only Dean was
involved
A. Yes
Q. I think you weren't able to recall Dean saying
do you know my mate Stanley
A. No
Q. The confusion particularly about Jordan can
you remember why that made it's way into your
statement
A. I just meant that Jordan pulled him of
Q. You told us you stabbed Jamie Thompson
A. Yes
Q. Did you intend to cause him really serious harm
A. No
Q. You told us that you did not stab Kevin, did
you know he was going to be stabbed
A. No
Q. Did you have any reason to think that Dean
would stab him
A. No
Q. In terms of what has happened the stabbing and
the death of Kevin Johnson how do you feel
about that
A. I feel really sorry
Q. Did you yourself have anything to do with that
A. No
No cross examine by Mr Nolan
Cross examine – Mr Hill
Q. I want to make sure that I fully understand
what your saying about these events, your account is
that you're the only one who went out without a knife
A. Yes
Q. But you're the only one who has been proved to
have used a knife
A. Yes
Q. And Dean had a Stanley knife
A. No
Q. What type of knife did he have
A. I said about 8-10 inches
Q. Jordan had a knife
A. I did not see him with one
Q. I thought you said to the police you
had a discussion with them and realised they
both had knives
A. Dean had a knife Jordan did not have one
Q. You went out with your friends expecting
to do a bit of thieving
A. Yes
Q. Screwdriver in your pocket
A. Yes
Q. And when you past Kevin you were the
innocent victim of an attack
A. Yes
Q. He just ran out of the house and started
attacking you
A. Yes
Q. And you ran away
A. No, I was on the floor
Q. When you got up did you run away
A. No
Q. And then you went to help Dean who was being
beat up by Kevin
A. Yes
Q. And you got punched again
A. Yes
Q. So you were just a victim
A. No, I know I played a part
Q. By throwing punches and trying to pull someone of.
You ended up with blood on your jacket, your best
friend calling you a puff and threatening you
with a knife
A. I wouldn't say threatening but he was waving
Q. You took this from him but did not cut yourself
A. No I still had my gloves on
Q. Not very sharp then
A. I don't know
Q. Then this best friend dares you stab someone
A. Yes
Q. If you were on the wearmouth bridge would you
have jumped if he dared you to
A. No
Q. But you knew Jamie
A. Yes
Q. You did not like him
A. No, he hit my mate years before
Q. So this seemed like a good time for revenge
A. No
Q. You said you lent forward and stabbed him
A. Yes
Q. What did that feel like
A. What do you mean
Q. Well it went through his clothing, into
his chest, what did it feel like
A. Didn't feel like nothing, am I meant
to feel good about myself for stabbing
someone, nah
Q. You didn't mean to do serious harm, what
did you mean to do to him
A. I just did it soft, if I wanted to do him
serious harm I would have done it a couple of times
Q. So you just pushed a knife into a man's
chest, soft
A. Yes
Q. You don't know what happened with the
knife, seriously
A. No
Q. Did you give it to someone
A. Don't know
Judge- You were the one who had the knife what
did you do with it
A. Thats what I'm saying I don't know, when
I got to Melanie's it was not there
Q. Come on you can do better than that
A. What do you mean I can do better
Q. Well we have had a suggestion that the
knife is in a washing basket in Dean's house
you've had 5 months to make this up
A. Nar I doubt it
Q. You were drunk, on a drunken rampage
A. So was Dean
Q. You say you are sorry about Kevin Johnson
A. Yes
Q. Were you sorry when you were in the police
station
A. Course I was
Q. So why did you not tell the police what
you are choosing to tell the jury
A. Because I was doing as I was told by my solicitor
Q. But you don't have to take his advise
A. I didn't want to say anything
Q. This story has come out about when you have
found out what the evidence is
A. No
Q. You had not yet been picked out by Jamie Thompson
A. Don't know
Q. Well they did not interview you again after
this did they
A. No
Q. And you know when you were picked out that
you would have to put your hands up
A. I was going to anyways
Q. You realised having admitted this stabbing
you would be the prime suspect that you stabbed
Kevin Johnson
A. I only stabbed one person
Q. The forensic evidence was served in August
suggesting the same knife had bee used in both
attacks
A. I don't know
Q. When did you first tell this story, when
did you come up with it
A. I told my solicitor in the police station
Q. In the police station, when you were under
arrest, is that your evidence on oath
A. It is the truth yes
Q. Do you agree that only one knife was
used on Kevin Johnson
A. Yes
Q. That was the knife you plunged into
Jamie Thompson
A. Yes
Q. As you said you were 100% certain Jordan
did not stab Kevin and although you did not see Dean
you think it must have been him
A. I know it wasn't Jordan
Q. Al a bit unfortunate that you told your dad
you stabbed Kevin
A. No I said someone
Q. Someone who ran out of a house, that's the
bit you can't get away from isn't it, you went on to
say you stabbed the man, there was no confusion in your
mind was there
A. Yes there was
Q. You were told what had happened by the
time your dad came along
A. Yes
Q. Your dad was not there when this happened
A. No
Q. So you must have told him that a man came
running out of the house
A. Yes
Q. The same knife has been used so you must
have used it
A. No once
Q. You know Dean did nothing in either of those
incidents, did he
A. Course he did something
Q. Your father tried to blame Dean
A. Yes
Q. You, missed the bit out that he stabbed him
A. Yes
Q. You were listening, you were interested
A. Course I was listening
Q. You never spoke to your dad again after the
police took you away
A. No
Q. Your father also said that you said your blood
soaked tracksuit bottoms went down a drain, what
do you say about that
A. I didn't say it
Q. How did your dad come up with this
A. I don't know
Q. You told him it didn't you
A. No
Q. Because they were drenched in blood
A. No
Q. Some blood came out of his chest but you also
put a knife through his arm didn't you
A. I didn't stab him
Q. The problem is you effectively admitted it
when you were arrested, you said, when you knew
you were being arrested for murder 'It was self
defence the kid came out and punched is and that
see Jordan Towers and Dean Curtis.'
A. Yes
Q. What exactly was self defence
A. Him coming out the house
Q. But your account you did not get a chance
A. I threw some punches and that
Q. Tell the jury how you defended yourself
A. I didn't really
Q. You were trying to say the reason why
you stabbed Kevin, you thought that people
might think it was over the top so you stopped
saying it
A. No
Q. Your interviews, it was pointed out that
you said it was self defence but you still went no
comment
A. Yes
Q. You see on the first page you are asked is
that your signature on the statement and you no
comment, you tell us you were feeling sorry
about Kevin
A. Yes
Q. Right at the end you are told that if
we have made a mistake tell me now and we
can try to find out, you say al I'm saying is
I've never stabbed nee on, this is a lie because you
stabbed Jamie Thompson
A. Yes
Q. Presumably if you had not been ID'd you
would now be saying you did not do that
A. No
Q. You would be blaming Dean for that as well
wouldn't you
A. No
Q. Your saying you did not have a knife or blade
with you during the night
A. No
Q. Were you trying to blame Jordan at this point
as well
A. No
Q. Were you with anyone else
A. No
Q. You said you did not want to name them, bit late you
had named them when arrested
A. Yes
Q. You knew at this point that you were under arrest for
the stabbing of Jamie Thompson
A. Can't remember
Q. Well there is reference to this earlier on in the
interview. You had been arrested during the first
interview so you in for a section 18 as well as a murder
A, Don't know
Q. You weren't just confused about Kevin and Jamie
you were talking about Kevin
A. Don't know
Q. At the very beginning when I said you knew Dean
had a Stanley knife you said no
A. Yes
Q. But you know a Stanley knife was not used
during these attacks
A. Don't know
Q. But you knew he had a Stanley knife
A. At the garage
Q. Do you remember going into a garden with a shed,
lots of paint and old rubbish lying around
A. No
Q. There was a Stanley knife there, you actually
said to him that you might as well have that
because it will be handy for the buckets
A. What do you mean
Q. You know what buckets are
A. For cannabis
Q. Yes
A. I don't smoke cannabis me
Q. No but Dean does
A. Yes
Q. So how does the bucket work
A. You cut it and pull it up
A. You sound like an expert
Q. My brother smokes it
Q. Ah your brother, you don't smoke cannabis
A. I do but not in buckets, in joints
Q. Lets go to the final interview 21st May, more
than 2 days after you had been arrested You see
where it says legal rep, it says Tony will say
I was out with Jordan and Dean etc Is that accurate
quite intoxicated
A. Yes
Q. Dean had said he had a knife but he
had not shown it to me, did he tell you why he
had a knife
A. He carries them all the time
Q. Dean was saying get in the house or I'll punch
your fucking head in, he also said about Mr Stanley
A. I can't remember if he said anything about
Mr Stanley
Q. You have given a very full account, so you
remember it all
A. Bits of it
Q. You did not mention the Stanley knife yesterday
A. I said I didn't know if he mentioned it
Q. Of course the Stanley knife was not used
A. No
Q. Punched you in the head and arm
A. Yes
Q. I ran across the road away from him
A. No
Q. You just made that up for the police
A. Na I just lay on the floor
Q. It is pretty clear
A. No
Judge – Why did you say it
A. Don't know
Q. Well if it didn't happen you must have made
it up
A. Yes
Q. You made it up
A. Yes
Q. See you've got a problem because you have blood
splatters on your top
A. Must have been when I tried to pull him off
Q. Not little bits, splatters
A. Yes
Q. You remember the pathologist suggesting
the stabbing may have caused a small amount of
splattering
A. Yes
Q. What a coincidence you have a small amount
of splattering on your jacket
A. Yes
Q. You could not have been coming from behind
A. No
Q. Your account is your hit from behind and fall
to the ground, you come at Kevin to try and get
him of and then get hit again, so how did you get
blood on your jacket
A. Don't know
Q. But you do know you were within arms length,
the stabbing caused blood to splatter just a little
bit but enough, that's correct isn't it
A. No
Q. Of course you could not have ran away because
you were too far away
A. I didn't run away
Q. What about Jordan
A. He didn't do anything
Q. Your saying that now but why did you not
tell the police
A. He just tried to pull him off
Q. Your father misunderstood, you said some
things to the police when arrested, you told
lies during the police interview, Jordan was
involved in the attack
A. No
Q. Does this mean you lied all the way through
until you got in the jury box and how can they be
sure your not lying now. You said you did not receive
any significant injuries, did you receive any
A. Don't think so, he hit me in the hair area
Q. I played no part in that attack, after a bit
the other two were winding me up about running away
A. No just Dean
Q. So that's a lie about the other two
A. If you say so
Q. Well not if I say so, if it is a mistake
then say
A. It is a mistake
Q. It is only after this I found out the had
knives, that a lie because you knew Dean had
a knife
A. Whats a lie
Q. The other two had knives
A. Jordan did not have a knife
Q. Are you frightened of Dean
A. Sometimes when he is drunk
Q. Not in these proceedings are you, presumably
you would not try to blame him for everything.
You were not frightened of him that night
A. Of course I was
Q. Someone waving a knife, your first reaction is
to grab the knife, not run away
A. No
Q. Your bigger than him, taller than him and a
bit brighter than him
A. Yes
Q. Quite an easy person to blame isn't he
A. No
Q. You heard the evidence of AT and CT
A. Yes
Q. They say the tallest was the third male
A. No
Q. Shouting wait there, one of the others said what
are you playing at what have you done that for
A. No
Q. If that's correct that is Dean or Jordan saying that
to moments after Kevin had been stabbed,
before Jamie had been stabbed after Kevin had been stabbed
A. I was the first one who crossed the road
Q. They went on to say the taller lad grabbed the other one,
that's not Dean or Jordan winding you up, that's you having
a go at them isn't it
A. No
Q. What have you done that for is Dean asking you
why stabbed Kevin
A. No
Q. Not only fragments of your skin on the Bench jacket
but also Dean's because you had a scuffle as you went
to Greenwood Road, he said he was of and you were call
him effectively for not doing more to Kevin
A. No
Q. You were the one shouting at the window weren't you
A. No
Q. You were the one Marsha Newby saw outside of her house,
you were the one first fighting, that's right
A. No
Q. That's how you ended up in a fight at the
very beginning because you were the shouter
A. No
Q. You actually stabbed him in the first incident
A. No
Q. You remember Dean and Jordan coming over
but because you stabbed him he backed of and
wrapped his arms around Deans legs
A. No
Q. That is why he had blood on his tracksuit
bottoms because you left him bleeding
A. No
Q. Al Dean did shout was leave him alone
A. No
Q. They then went of ahead that's what happened
A. No
Q. They couldn't believe that you had done that
A. No I didn't do that
Q. There you are three friends and two of them
could not believe what you had done
A. No I didn't do nowt
Q. That's why you stabbed Jamie because they
were questioning you about what you had done
A. No
Q. You don't just stab someone because they
were calling you a puff do you
A. No they were egging me on
Q. Never sensible to stab someone
A. No
Q. But you don't do it just because they called
you names, you do if your fuels up with vodka
though and angry with your mates
A. No
Q. You didn't know Jordan was going to cross the
road and talk to this lad
A. No
Q. But you stormed over, you knew you were going to
stab him, did you think about it when you
were walking over the road
A. Dean was egging me on as we walked over
Q. In fact Dean was behind you Jordan was nearer you
but you weren't really interested where the
other two were
A. Dean was next to me
Q. Got a taste for it did you, for stabbing someone
A. No
Q. You did it softly
A. Yes
Q. How can you stab someone but not mean to do him
really serious harm
A. I was aiming for his arm
Q. Bad shot then
A. No
Q. More bad luck Mr Hawkes, accused of a murder
you weren't involved in, trying to stab someone
in the arm and missing
A. Yes
Q. The reference to a Stanley knife was in
Angela  house
A. No Terry Halls
Q. Alright but they are al friends and family
A. Yes
Q. You made the reference to the Stanley knife
A. No, I was alright with them
Q. Dean called them a pervert, one of the girls
agreed to that and they did turn up with 15 year
old girls
A. Yes
Q. It has already been established that the
Stanley knife was made up to warn the other two l
ads off
A. No
Q. Well no one had heard of Kenny or Dean until
I mentioned them
A. No
Q. You mention they did you, they only cropped
up when I asked EP about them
A. Yes
Q. You know you're the reason why Stanley was
being mentioned and you tried to put them out of
the picture
A. I don't even know who they are
Q. You tried to turn everything around onto
Dean at every opportunity, this incident with
the fire lighters that was you wasn't it
A. No
Q. Samurai sword what on earth were you
going to do with that
A. Don't know
Q. Your very quick to day Dean had a knife
A. He always does
Q. That night you had a screwdriver, a knife
and a samurai sword, why
A. I don't know
Judge – But why there must have been a reason
why you picked it up
A. Don't know
Q. Dean was not as drunk as you that night
A. Don't know
Q. There was another incident before these
stabbings, do you remember at Angela's house,
do you remember the three of you sitting there
wondering how you were going to get money for drink
and you picked up a mobile phone before you stabbed
anyone, do you know what I am talking about
A. No we weren't in her house
Q. Dean picked up a phone you thought Dean was going to
steal it and you actually stretched across
and kicked Dean in the head
A. No
Q. You took Dean to Terry's it was here you found out
the man had died
A. Yes
Q. That was the first you and Dean knew that
someone was seriously injured or dead
A. Yes
Q. You had been together throughout the early hours
A. Yes
Q. This was the first indication you knew of
someone dying
A. Yes
Q. Dean fled you did not see him again did you
A. No
Q. From the moment you heard Kevin was dead everything
you've said or done has been aimed at
saving your own skin
A. No
Q. Everything you have said to the jury is the
best you can do to fit the prosecution case
A. No
Q. Dean and Jordan, particularly Dean was your
friend but your prepared to send him down for
murder
A. It was Dean
Q. You stabbed Kevin didn't you
A. No
Q. When he fell on Dean you came around the back
and stabbed him
A. No
Q. Poor Jamie Thompson is just a victim of
you being angry at your friends
A. No
Cross examine Mr Woodcock
Q. You have been friendly with Dean for
quite a while
A. Yes
Q. He is somebody who you frequently hang around
A. Just normally on a night
Q. That was a bit of a habit was it
A. Yes
Q. This Friday night was not unusual it was
one amongst many
A. Yes, anyway really
Q. You also were well known to Jordan Towers
A. Yes
Q. It is no unusual event for you and Jordan to
be out walking the streets of Pennywell and Grindon
A. No
Q. On a night time
A. Yes
Q. And you have known Jordan for quite a while
A. Yes
Q. You know where he lives, you know his mum,
you know his habits, where some of his family
live
A. Yes
Q. Would you go to their houses from time
to time
A. I would stay outside
Q. These houses are they in Grindon
A. Grindon
Q. Can the jury assume that you keep the
company of him because you like him
A. He's my best friend
Q. You know everything about him
A. Not everything
Q. But most things, he would trust
you as much as you would trust him
A. Yes
Q. He is also someone who is quite a
bright boy
A. Yes
Q. He can make himself understood
A. Yes
Q. He can stand his corner in an argument
A. Yes
Q. Over the time you have know him how
did he get on with Dean
A. He was with Dean most of the time
Q. Can the jury assume that Dean trusted Jordan
A. Yes
Q. Can the jury assume that Jordan trusted Dean
A. Probably yes
Q. Well you have just told us that Jordan is
your best mate
A. Yes
Q. And if Jordan did not like Dean he would have
told you
A. Yes
Q. It was all three of your habits to spend time
together at night time
A. Yes
Q. As you have already told us Dean always carries
a knife
A. Yes
Q. Describe to us some of the knives you have
seen Dean carrying
A. Different sizes, different lengths, hammers
and that
Q. What type of knife
A. They often looked like kitchen knives
Q. You have seen him with more than one type
of knife
A. Yes
Q. Have you asked him why he carries them
A. He has loads of enemies and some of them I talk to
Q. So they're his enemies but you talk to them
A. Yes
Q. You believe because he has a lot of enemies
A. Yes
Q. And some of them are the people you like
A. Yes
Q. Are we to assume that you are also with Jordan
when Dean is carrying a knife
A. Yes
Q. So because you're the best mate of Jordan, so as a
best mate it would be a best mate thing to do to
warn Jordan that Dean was carrying a knife
A. Jordan knows Dean caries a knife
Q. Is it usually a kitchen knife
A. Yes
Q. Can the jury also assume Jordan knows
Dean caries a knife because of his enemies
A. Yes
Q. Might some of these be people that Jordan
is friends with
A. Yes
Q. So your saying some of your friends are at
risk of Dean
A. No normally Dean would just run away
Q. So why does he need to carry the knife, does
he need a knife to run away
A. Don't know
Q. Or to give him courage to stand his ground
A. Yes
Q. Your very keen to tell the jury that on
this particular night though you know all about
Jordan you did know he was carrying a knife
A. He does not carry knives
Q. Oh but he does
A. I did not see him discard a knife or
have a knife
Q. So you say but you now know he took
the police to his discarded knife, a knife he
discarded on the night Kevin was stabbed
A. I didn't see him with one
Q. So you say but he did have one
A. I didn't see him with one
Q. But it is obvious he had the knife
A. If you say so
Q. You know he had the knife
A. No
Q. If he knew Dean did he would have been
on the team
A. No
Q. So just as if Dean met an enemy when you
and Jordan were with him then it was not just Dean
armed with a knife
A. I did not see Jordan with one
Q. On this night you went out with a screwdriver,
how long was the shaft
A. About 8 inches including the handle
Q. Explain to me how do you carry a screwdriver
around without it getting in the way or injuring
you
A. Put it in my right pocket
Q. Your knife pocket
A. Right trouser pocket
Q. And you can run and walk around with a
screwdriver in your pocket
A. Yes
Q. How do you carry a knife around
A. Stick it in the top of your trousers
Q. In the belt of your trousers
A. Where the belt is, or you can put it in your sock
Q. Where did Dean put it
A. In his trousers
Q. Was the blade on the inside or outside
A. Inside
Q. Blade down
A. Yes
Q. How much of the handle showing
A. All of it
Q. But you would have a top on to conceal
it because you would not want it on display
A. No
Q. Is this a safe way to carry a knife
A. Dean would wear about three pairs of
tracksuit bottoms
Q. Since we now know Jordan was carrying a knife
how would he carry it, the same place as Dean
A. Yes
Q. You with your screwdriver, in your pocket,
could you carry it the same way as a knife
A. Yes
Q. Jordan would have known that Dean was
carrying a knife
A. Yes
Q. One of your purposes that night was
to steal from cars
A. Yes
Q. With a screwdriver
A. Yes
Q. We can be sure that Dean would have known
that you were looking for cars to steal from
A. Yes
Q. Jordan would have known the same
A. Yes
Q. Were they looking as well
A. Yes
Q. That's what you were doing that night
A. Yes
Q. The area, was that the same area
Friday after Friday
A. It was different areas
Q. Been chased a few times
A. By the police
Q. Or the poor person whose car you were
trying to break in to
A. Yes
Q. In the Pennywell area
A. No
Q. Grindon area
A. No
Q. That would make you some enemies wouldn't it
A. Yes
Q. Wouldn't make them your best friend
A. No
Q. As you drifted there was always the chance
you would encounter someone whose car you would
break in to
A. There was only one car we got into
Q. Yes that night but there were other nights
A. Yes
Q. Equally there was always a chance you
would be caught
A. Yes
Q. Any car you would break in would be the owner
of the car come out to shout at you or even to
apprehend you
A. Yes
Q. Drag you to the ground and make a phone call
to the police
A. It never happened
Q. Aren't you lucky, that would be why you would
need to carry a knife though isn't it
A. No
Q. That's how you each knew the other would be
carrying a knife
A. No
Q. You in fact were carrying a knife weren't
you Mr Hawkes
A. No
Q. The scientist has told us quite a bit in
this case
A. Yes
Q. Do you understand what they have told us
A. Yes
Q. Then you know the weapon that killed Kevin
must have had some blood on it when it came out
of Kevin
A. Yes
Q. The scientists say the same weapon that killed
Kevin stabbed Jamie Thompson
A. Yes
Q. The blood from Kevin was found at the entry
wound of Jamie Thompson's coat
A. Yes
Q. The scientists conclude that it was the same
knife, do you follow that
A. Yes
Q. Another scientist is Dr Cooper
A. Yes
Q. He said the weapon that killed Kevin was not
a screwdriver
A. Yes
Q. It was a knife
A. Yes
Q. And the knife that stabbed Kevin Johnson
has therefore stabbed Jamie Thompson
A. Yes
Q. You didn't get that knife from Dean did you
A. Yes I did
Q. You carried that knife al for yourself
didn't you
A. No
Q. The only person who has brought a screwdriver
into this is you
A. That's what I had when I left the house
Q. Jamie Thompson thought it was a screwdriver
it was in fact a knife
A. Yes
Q. A knife you in fact had
A. Yes
Q. You said that Dean was cross with you for
not helping him out, for letting him down
A. Yes
Q. You and Jordan were al together on
Greenwood Road
A. Yes
Q. At that time Jamie Thompson was walking
on the other side of the road
A. Yes
Q. Jordan must have been well aware that
Dean was teasing you
A. Probably
Q. No probably definitely
A. Probably
Q. And Jordan would have heard Dean saying
stab Jamie to you
A. Probably
Q. And he still went to Jamie after Dean had
been teasing you
A. No it was as were walking across the road
Q. Jamie Thompson was stopped and detained by
Jordan Towers
A. No
Q. You and Dean then followed
A. Yes
Q. You stood around Jamie Thompson
A. No
Q. No, so where was Dean when you stabbed him
A. Standing next to me
Q. And Jordan
A. On the other side
Q. In a ring, a semi-circle
A. Yes
Q. That was after Jordan spoke to him
A. Yes
Q. Tell the jury you stabbed Jamie Thompson
A. I stabbed Jamie Thompson
Q. You stabbed him with a deadly weapon
A. Yes
Q. Are you honestly expecting the jury to
believe you stabbed him with a deadly weapon and
intended him no harm
A. Yes
Q. You could have stabbed him in the arm if you wanted
A. No
Q. It al happened with Dean saying he wanted a fight
and you puled the knife out of your pocket
and stabbed him
A. I didn't have it in my pocket
Q. You withdrew the weapon and stabbed him
A. Yes
Q. He did nothing, he was moving around
A. No
Q. Your blow was deliberate and well aimed
A. Yes
Q. Then why did you say you wanted to stab him
in the arm
A. That's where I was aiming for
Q. You knew the risk of stabbing him was at
least as great as the injury sustained by Kevin
A. No
Q. When you left Kevin he was in a terrible state
A. Yes
Q. Explain to the jury, were you horrified by
the condition you saw Kevin Johnson left in
A. I was shocked
Q. Did it sicken you to the stomach
A. Yes
Q. Did you see the blood
A. When he pulled his top up
Q. Did you see him collapse by the wall
A. No
Q. But you were sickened about it
A. Yes
Q. Sickened by the fact you were not concerned
or involved in the incident
A. What do you mean
Q. You could not have been responsible
A. No
Q. And that was what sickened you
A. Yes
Q. You knew he had been stabbed before you left
A. When he lifted his top up
Q. There was no doubt in your mind when you were
walking across the road
A. No
Q. What better evidence could you need than him
saying I've been stabbed
A. Don't know
Q. When you knew this happened why did you not
want to get away from your friends and stay
away from them
A. Don't know
Q. You don't know
A. No
Q. The night did not get any better did it
A. No
Q. You were with the other two when Kevin was killed,
you were responsible for the stabbing of Jamie Thompson
A. Yes
Q. You were there when clothing was stolen
A. Yes
Q. Bike stolen and poor Mr Shakir was terrorised
A. Yes
Q. And when Dean was bragging about it later
A. Yes
Q. Was the reason that you re so bonded,
so close mates you could not leave them
A. I just did not think about it
Q. At the time I am suggesting al three of
you had a knife, which of you had a knuckleduster
A. None of us
Q. You heard what the scientist said
A. Yes
Q. Are you sure you did not have a knuckle duster
A. None of us had a knuckle duster
Q. Kevin was standing at his bedroom window,
he is entitles to do it
A. Yes
Q. He had every right to shout at you from his
window if he wanted to
A. We were just walking past his house
Q. A lot of noise though, you were arguing
and teasing each other
A. Me and Dean were arguing yes
Q. So you caught Kevin's attention because
of this, Kevin objected, he was entitled to be upset
about this not just for himself and rest of the
residents in Partick Road
A. Yes
Q. When he shouted clear of why didn't you
A. We were walking past
Q. No the evidence is that some part of your
group gave a load of abuse to Kevin when he told you
to clear of, which of you was it
A. Giving abuse back, Dean
Q. Oh it was Dean was it
A. Yes
Q. Instead of clearing of the three of you stopped there
A. No we kept walking
Q. And Kevin came down and stood at his gate didn't he
A. He walked to the gate
Q. As he left the gate and walked up Partick Road
you could see him, the street lighting was perfect
A. Can't remember
Q. Well you knew he did not have a weapon on him
A. No
Q. What you could see Dean and Jordan could see
A. Yes
Q. You saw an angry but unarmed man
A. Yes
Q. Why didn't you all just clear of then
A. I don't know
Q. Do you regret it now
A. Of course I do
Q. But your all drunk aren't you, including Jordan
A. Yes
Q. Whether he had been sipping he had sipped enough
to be drunk like the rest of you
A. No
Q. With the knives no was going to frighten you
lot were they
A. I don't know
Q. Well you didn't feel frightened by Kevin
Johnson did you
A. Can't remember now
Q. Well was he a frightening prospect
A. I suppose so
Q. So why didn't you clear of, you had
the whole of Sunderland to run and hide why
did you stand your ground
A. Well if you get hit your going to hit back
Q. This is before he hit you, you stood your
ground because you al knew about the knives and
knew you had nothing to fear, that's the truth
isn't it
A. No
Q. At one point all three of you's were standing
around Kevin
A. No
Q. One of you were making stabbing motions with
your hand, which one was that
A. It was not me or Jordan, but I didn't see Dean
doing it
Q. Your right handed
A. Yes
Q. Is Jordan Towers
A. Don't know
Q. You and Dean were fighting back and had him
on the floor a little bit over the road and on the
kerb on the other side
A. No
Q. He wasn't just stabbed he had other wounds, he
had injuries to his lower back
A. Yes
Q. Was that you
A. No
Q. Jordan
A No
Q. Dean
A. Don't know
Q. At some point Jordan picked up a huge piece of
paving slab and hurled it at Kevin
A. Don't know
Q. Even Jordan says he threw it at his head
A. It didn't go anywhere near his head
Q. He did it at a time when Kevin was going back
to the house
A. No
Q. When Kevin had won the fight but he was in fact
already dying by then
A. No
Q. Al 3 of you stood there and laughed, that's
what happened isn't it
A. No
Q. You heard the evidence of Marsha Newby,
you laughed
A. Didn't think we laughed like
Q. And laughed at AB who was desperately
trying to help
A. No
Q. And laughed at Marsha Newby
A. No
Q. Then you all walked to Geddes Road
A. Yes
Q. There was a lot of shouting and screaming
at this point
A. Yes
Q. There was no shouting and screaming in disgust
A. Can't remember
Q. It was more delighted in what you had done
A. No
Q. You said earlier you had almost been caught
breaking into cars
A. No
Q. You remember Mr Liddle's Evidence
A. Yes
Q. He actually gave chase
A. Didn't chase any of us
Q. Oh he did
A. He didn't like
Q. And which ever one of you jumped up and hit
the for sale sign, that's the reason he gave chase
A. He didn't give chase
Q. But this was not a good idea because you needed
to get away without drawing any more attention to
yourselves
A. Yes
Q. Yes, but he did give chase
A. No
Q. You remember the evidence of Mr Milligan,
he heard a bang outside like a thump noise. That is at
the same time Mr Liddle is hot on you heels
A. No
Q. That is the reason for the argument witnessed by
AT and CT, that is the truth of it all isn't it
A. Yes
Q. Thank you. After you had stolen some clothing
and bicycles.
A. Yes
Q. ….before you make your way to the shell garage
quite a bit of time elapses
A. Yes
Q. By the time Jamie has been stabbed were all three
of you best friends again
Q. What do you mean
Q. Were you in Dean's good books again
A. I don't know
Q. Does he say well done Tony
A. No
Q. So were you still arguing
A. I don't think so
Q. So was everything back to normal
A. I don't know
Q. So where do you go when you had been to
Melanie Mckeiths house
A. We went looking for cars
Q. Back to normal
A. Yes
Q. Dean say whether he got rid of the knife
A. No
Q. You still had the screwdriver and Dean
still had the knife
A. Yes
Q. Jordan was coming along playing his part
in stealing
A. Yes
Q. At the point you turn up at aunty Terry's house,
by then you could not possibly have forgot about
what had happened
A. No
Q. Did you feel ashamed by what you had done
A. Yes
Q. Had you given it a second thought
A. Yes
Q. Amongst the people you met were Vikki Thew
and EP
A. Yes, can't remember Vikki being there
Q. EP is your girlfriends isn't she
A. Nor me cousin
Q. Your cousin, your very close to her though
A. Yes
Q. Whilst there Dean starts bragging
A. Yes
Q. Jordan had gone home though
A. Yes
Q. Because at this time he was dreadfully
drunk
A. No
Q. He was drunk he had no energy
A. No
Q. You lost your leader
A. My leader
Q. Yes
A. He only went home for some sleep
Q. Dean is busy bragging about the nights
events
A. Yes
Q. We've heard EP  said that Dean
had said, you also told the police, about
Mr Stanley
A. Yes
Q. One of the first things he said
A. Yes
Q. If you remember it now how can you not
remember him saying to EP
A. I heard him saying when he told them
Q. Did you hear him saying it when he killed
Kevin Johnson
A. Can't remember
Q. Is your account that you can't remember what
was said at Terry Hall's house
A. Yes
Q. Do you remember getting a phone call from
your mother
A. Yes
Q. What did you tell her
A. That I had stabbed someone
Q. The jury have been told that she thought
she heard you running
A. Its was a windy night
Q. Were the gloves to conceal you fingerprints
while stealing
A. Yes
Q. Did you ever pause to think about the position
you have put your father in
A. No
Q. Did you ever think what a dreadful moment it
must have been for him knowing you were wanted
for murder
A. No
Q. What he said is (statement read) This man
cannot possibly be Jamie Thompson
A. No
Q. Punched you twice in the face, Jamie Thompson
never did this did he
A. No
Q. So that cannot not be him
A. No
Q. The man then set about Jordan Towers
and then stabbed a man
A. Can't remember
Q. Now Jamie Thompson did not set about
Jordan Towers
A. No
Q. So it must be Kevin your talking about
A. There is only one person that I stabbed
Q. You said Dean stabbed a man also and you
were out of it on vodka and needed some more sleep.
You told him the clothes had been put down a
drain because the had blood on them . Bear in mind
this is your father speaking, who loves you, wanted
to protect you
A. Yes
Q. Wanted you to get to the police station as
fast as he could so you could claim the benefit of
handing yourself in
A. Yes
Q. These are the words he recalls that you've spoken
A. Yes
Q. He's telling the truth
A. No
Q. Are you suggesting he is lying
A. No
Q. Just to cover it, at the moment of your actual
arrest you dad permitted you to say farewell to your
mother, he in your presence introduces you to the police
and says I was bringing him in
A. Yes
Q. When asked why he said he told me he stabbed the bloke
A. Yes
Q. You then give the answer about it being self defence
A. Yes
Q. So then it is you are taken to the police station
and are frequently interviewed by the police
A. Yes
Q. And you accept it was properly carried out at
the police station
A. Yes
Q. You knew initially your arrest was for murder
A. Yes
Q. You knew that was the incident they were primarily
concerned with questioning you about
A. Yes
Q. You had been totally an innocent participant
A. No
Q. But you punched him because he punched you
A. Yes
Q. You did not stab him or know who had stabbed him
A. No
Q. You had nothing to fear from the truth did you
A. No
Q. You said your solicitor told you not to answer
any questions but also you did not want to answer
any questions
A. I was advised not to answer
Q. But you did not want to answer
A. I was advised first
Q. But you had nothing to fear from the truth
A. No
Q. Account from the second interview produces
your first prepared statement in a typed written
form
A. Yes
Q. It is short, actually the first one is hand
written, the second is typed
A. Yes
Q. Lets look at that, that is your signature
A. Yes
Q. It was read out in your second interview
A. Yes
Q. You did not go out with a knife,
that's not true
A. No
Q. Why, because you had a screwdriver
A. Yes
Q. Which is as deadly a weapon as any other
A. Yes
Q. Why did you not tell police
A. Don't know
Q. You were more worried about car theft than murder
A. No
Q. You would have confessed to car theft
instead of murder
A. I was advised to say nothing
Q. No, no, no, no, no, this is a written statement,
why does it not say you had a screwdriver, is it
because you are a liar Mr Hawkes
A. No
Q. Its says you never had a knife
A. Yes
Q. Is it a lie
A. No
Q. Why did you lie
A. I don't know
Q. Do you know when you are telling a lie
A. Yes
Q. Is it a lie to say I don't know why I lied
A. Aye
Q. So why did you lie
A. Don't know
Q. Is it to protect others
A. Aye
Q. Why did you care who else got into trouble
A. Don't know
Q. Nor did I use any knife or bladed weapon,
that's not the truth, why did you tell that lie
A. Don't know
Q. I cannot say the same for the people I was with
A. Yes
Q. It doesn't say I cannot say the same for one
of the people I was with, it says I cannot say the
same for the people I was with
A. Yes
Q. Because you were including in that
Jordan and Dean
A. Yes
Q. You couldn't say the same for them
because they were armed with knives as well
A. Jordan wasn't
Q. I did not stab anyone, that's not true either
A. No
Q. I do not wish to name anyone I was with,
but that position changed
A. Yes
Q. The document you discussed with your
solicitor you agreed with him
A. Yes
Q. In he goes with you and that document and
you signed
A. Yes
Q. You sign because you want the policeman to
think it is the truth
A. Yes
Q. Even though you still know this is a murder
investigation
A. Yes
Q. You did know that Dean had a knife
A. No
Q. You did because it was his habit to have one
A. No
Q. He never went out without one
A. No not really
Q. So why did you not tell the police that
A. Don't know
Q. Is it because your a liar
A. No
Q. He was also saying do you know my mate
Stanley, this is what you told the police officers
because that is what Dean was saying
A. I can't remember
Q. That is why he was bragging
A. Yes
Q. Why did you say Jordan and Dean went straight
to the man and attacked him
A. Don't know
Q. Because it is the truth
A. No
Q. Jordan and Dean went straight to the man
and attacked him
A. No
Q. Why say it about Jordan if it is not true
A. Don't know
Q. Is it also true about Dean
A. It is true about Dean
Q. Al three of you were involved really
weren't you
A. No
Q. I played no part in the attack, well its
not the truth
A. I played a part in it
Q. But only as the victim
A. I threw some punches and tried to pull
him of Dean
Q. Well was Dean in danger from the maniac who
had come out of the house
A. Yes
Q. Even though he had a knife
A. I did not see him with a knife
Q. Do not be scared about saying Jordan Towers
 had a knife he has confessed as much, you say the
other two had knives
A. I didn't see him with a knife
Q. Which is why Mr Hawkes when we go back
to your first statement you say I cannot say the
same for the people I was with not just on of the
people, you knew all along that Jordan had a knife
A. No
Q. You knew he had the knife because he was
waving it around when Kevin was in the street
just like you and Dean
A. No
Q. You then saw Jordan hurl the paving slab at
his head
A. No
Re-examine – Mr Bloomfield
Q. You did not have a knife when you went out
A. No
Q. Just a screwdriver
A. Yes
Q. Did you think it was to be used as a weapon
A. No
Q. You think Dean had a knife but you did not
see it
A. No
Q. The Stanley knife we have heard about,
were you there when he found that knife
A. No
Q. Did you stop at a shed and find
the knife
A. No
Q. Did you say it would be a good knife for
the cannabis
A. No
Q. You confess you enjoy cannabis, what about
Dean did he take cannabis that night
A. Not that I no
Q. How does he normally take it
A. Buckets, pipes anyway really
Q. Who shouted at the window to Kevin
A. Dean
Q. Did you shout anything to the window
A. No
Q. When you were behind Kevin were you aware of
an injury to his arm
A. No
Q. How far away from his left arm were you
A. Not far, within a meter
Q. When you tried to pull him of how did you do it
A. Put my hands forwards and puled
Q. After that you left the area
A. Yes
Q. You crossed the main road who was first
A. Me
Q. Who was last
A. Dean
Q. Was there any arguing
A. Yes
Q. Who
A. Can't remember think it was al three of us
Q. What was it about
A. Can't remember
Q. Who was arguing
A. Think it was me and Dean
Q. Can you remember what it was about
A. No
Q. Then you came across Jamie Thompson
A. Yes
Q. Did you stab him because of your friends
A. No
Q. Did you stab him in a tantrum
A. No
Q. Why did you stab him
A. Cos Dean was egging me on
Q. When you were about to stab him where
was Dean
A. At the side of me
Q. Was he egging you on at that point
A. Yes
Q. During that time after you left Partick
Road until you left Dean at Terry's did you
hear Dean bragging
A. Yes
Q. Did you hear him say meet my mate Stanley
A. Yes at Terry's
Q. And what was that about
A. Stanley knife I think
Q. Was it about a particular incident
A. Can't remember
Q. Was it about Kevin Johnson
A. Yes
Q. Where did Dean keep his knife
A. Don't know
Q. Were you aware if he carried only one
A. Don't know
Q. You were then arrested
A. Yes
Q. How were you feeling at that point
A. Done in, canny stressed out
Q. Didn't feel like answering questions
A. Did
Q. Let's be clear, did you stab Kevin Johnson
A. No
Released.